I'm not talking about entry level jobs, I'm talking about people who have to work in factories as a career because the job market is shit. Even if you're working on an assembly line, you're entitled to the same safeties and regulations as anyone else. The problem is that without unions, employers could treat their employees any way they wanted to, and the only way to change it would be through the federal government. Unions allow any common worker to actually get things done outside Uncle Sam.

TIL henry ford and efficiency wages dont real

Dangerous/unsafe =/= needs to be changed

There are important things in the workplace that aren't big, life-threatening things. It's not 1896.

Right, and we're waiting for you to name some.

Are unions really necessary anymore?

In limited capacities. In many industries they're incredibly nonprogressive and detrimental to its laborers. The taxi driver union is a great example of how shitty they can be. The teacher's union sucks, and many general retail unions are entirely unnecessary and are very predatory of their members.

Quote from: Carsonogen on September 14, 2015, 08:32:39 PM

Dangerous/unsafe =/= needs to be changed

There are important things in the workplace that aren't big, life-threatening things. It's not 1896.

Right, and we're waiting for you to name some.

You're missing the point. It's not about naming stuff right now and working to get those things fixed, it's about having the agency to fix problems that may appear in the future. Without unions, changes can't happen through the workers, they happen whenever the employer decides to get around to it.

Without unions, changes can't happen through the workers, they happen whenever the employer decides to get around to it.

Because workers are morons who can't agitate for something or bring grievances to management without some pre-determined structure for them to be herded through, right?

This is a bullshit argument. "We should keep X because somewhere, somehow at some point in time Y could happen".

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 14, 2015, 08:47:17 PM

and many general retail unions are entirely unnecessary and are very predatory of their members.

Same in the UK.

As lame as it sounds, I wrote a pretty detailed paper on modern retail unions back in high school. I was really passionate about it because I was working retail at the time and my local union (United Food and Commercial Workers union) was threatening to strike based on Kroger's desire to marginally increase healthcare withholdings. The strike would have resulted in hundreds of lost jobs and severe staffing disruption at all stores. A primary argument in my essay was the fact that union fees per month actually outweighed the proposed withholding increase, meaning if the union didn't exist, the employees would simultaneously be able to keep their (competitive) healthcare coverage while also pocketing a few extra bucks each week. It was also backed up with demonstration that the proposed withholding increase was completely justified by rising healthcare cost trends. But the unions just don't give a fuck; they don't work for the companies, they're just third-party lawyers that figured out how to leech off of blue-collar workers making a minimum wage base pay. Fuck them all. Unions should still exist, but membership should be entirely mandatory and leadership should be composed entirely of company employees, not third-party bureaucrats. You'll find that many companies already have similar in-house representation through employee councils.

Quote from: Carsonogen on September 14, 2015, 08:51:55 PM

Quote from: Fagcicle on September 14, 2015, 08:49:54 PM

Quote from: Carsonogen on September 14, 2015, 08:48:41 PM

Quote from: Executioner Sigma on September 14, 2015, 08:43:23 PM

Quote from: Carsonogen on September 14, 2015, 08:32:39 PM

Dangerous/unsafe =/= needs to be changed

There are important things in the workplace that aren't big, life-threatening things. It's not 1896.

Right, and we're waiting for you to name some.

You're missing the point. It's not about naming stuff right now and working to get those things fixed, it's about having the agency to fix problems that may appear in the future. Without unions, changes can't happen through the workers, they happen whenever the employer decides to get around to it.

So, there are no pressing issues at this time that require the need for labor unions?

Exactly. Getting rid of labor unions is like getting rid of seatbelts because there were no car crashes that day.

As Meta said

"We need X because someday, Y will happen"

is dumb as fuck.

No, it's basic logic. It's more like "X solved all of these problems for hundreds of years, let's get rid of X because all of these problems are doubtlessly fixed and we'll never need X again". That's truly dumb as fuck. Unions aren't a one-shot fixer, they're a constant. It makes no sense to remove that constant just because things are better now than they used to be.

Unions have become corporatist fucking behemoths that care more about farming money from employees than actually improving their work conditions nowadays.

Credit where credits due and all, but there's a point where rights become privileges.

Sometimes unions are a good thing. A few counties in Tennessee bought extra time before Common Core could be implemented because of the teacher's union. They also help prevent schools from cutting teachers unfairly, the most often being in relation to tenure laws and limits.

At the same time, the 2011 Wisconsin Protests were ridiculous and prevented many willing workers from attending their jobs, efficiently or in general. So really, it's a case-by-case problem. Some unions are necessary, some aren't.

I was in those protests. They were more than justified. You weren't even there.

Quote from: Prime Snake on September 14, 2015, 10:04:27 PM

Sometimes unions are a good thing. A few counties in Tennessee bought extra time before Common Core could be implemented because of the teacher's union. They also help prevent schools from cutting teachers unfairly, the most often being in relation to tenure laws and limits.

At the same time, the 2011 Wisconsin Protests were ridiculous and prevented many willing workers from attending their jobs, efficiently or in general. So really, it's a case-by-case problem. Some unions are necessary, some aren't.

I was in those protests. They were more than justified. You weren't even there.

i was in close proximity to those protests, and uh, yeah, it's hard for me not to think they were justified either

i'm very biased though

Sine I'm a stupid highschooler that can't take any classes on the government, can someone tell me what a union is?