I saw something absolutely disgusting today.

Mordo · April 04, 2015, 03:51:59 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 03:48:27 PM

Quote from: EasterTurkey on April 04, 2015, 03:47:09 PM
Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 03:42:30 PM
Quote from: EasterTurkey on April 04, 2015, 03:36:33 PM
At my university I saw a few times a group of fundamentalist Muslims claiming Christians, Jews, and Atheists were going to burn. It's all about free speech, man, no matter how disgusting it may feel. I'd be more disgusted by government intervention. The best result is seeing people ignore them completely.
Yeah ignoring it sure did stop the tube being blown the fuck up.

For starters, America doesn't have such an issue with extremist Muslims. I don't see what cracking down on speech would do except galvanize more fringe Muslims to embrace extremism.
But Britain does. And all these fools do is bend over and take it up the ass from Mohammed.

No we don't.

The reason we have such a problem with Islamic culture in the UK is because we fucking suck at assimilation, hence why American Muslims differ so much from British Muslims. The US places heavy emphasis on coming into the country and adapting to the US way of life, whilst keeping in touch with your own culture. The UK just thinks multiculturalism is the fucking answer to all immigration problems, no thanks to New Labour.

challengerX · April 04, 2015, 03:55:33 PM

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Mordo · April 04, 2015, 03:57:26 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 03:55:33 PM

Yes you do.

If we actually were cracking down on speech you wouldn't have even witnessed that demonstration.

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Which is exactly what "take it up the ass" means. It means you demand nothing from them and let them do as they please, essentially raping British culture.

There's a difference between culture assimilation and silencing speech. Not sure why you're conflating the two.

challengerX · April 04, 2015, 04:00:15 PM

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Mordo · April 04, 2015, 04:04:58 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 04:00:15 PM

That's my point. These people are allowed to freely run around the streets and call their psycho brethren to destroy Western culture.

I think you're gravely over exaggerating a peaceful demonstration. Distasteful I'm more than happy to admit, but going by the description you gave, it seemed relatively civil. Everyone is entitled to an organised, civil protest regardless of what they have to say.

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The point is they don't assimilate so they're out in the streets fresh off the plane from Shitholeistan running amok.

And that's why it's an immigration and cultural issue, not a speech issue.

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And Brits do absolutely nothing.

I agree, but not for the reason your positing.

challengerX · April 04, 2015, 04:14:07 PM

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gats · April 04, 2015, 04:26:59 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 04:14:07 PM

you do nothing about Brits going join ISIS in Syria

you say it like it's something easy to do

Turkey is a popular tourist destination
how do you differentiate between people going on holiday and people going to join isis

challengerX · April 04, 2015, 04:33:43 PM

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Not Comms Officer · April 04, 2015, 04:35:38 PM

It's a big city that tends to have crazy stuff happen to it fairly often. The only protesting Muslims I've seen in my time there were Bahrainis protesting against their Government. But you've most likely seen a lot more of London than I have by this point.

Super Irish · April 04, 2015, 05:36:12 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on April 04, 2015, 02:40:42 PM

The UK Polling Report shows that back in 2006, 78pc of British Muslims polled believed that Kurt Westegaard--the Danish guy who drew pictures of Mohammed--should've been prosecuted, with 68pc thinking those who insult Islam should be prosecuted.

CBS News, also back in 2006, reported that 25pc of British Muslims supported the 7/7 bombers. And Pew has weighed in on the issue, showing that 24pc of British Muslims think suicide bombing is justified, with a further 15pc saying it is sometimes justified. Worryingly, this rises to 35pc and 19pc for Muslims aged 18-29. That's 54pc of 18-29yo Muslims who feel that suicide bombing is at least sometimes justified.

Civitas tell us that 33pc of Muslims believe apostates should be killed, and 28pc want Britain to be an Islamic state. And a different Pew study showed that just 7pc of Muslims in Britain think of themselves as British first, with 81pc explicitly thinking of themselves as Muslim first.

I'm not liking those percentages, but I want to it a tad clearer. How many were polled?

Sprungli · April 04, 2015, 06:38:08 PM

Has it ever occurred to you that most people in this country don't give a single shit what other people believe?

challengerX · April 04, 2015, 06:40:48 PM

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Mad Max · April 04, 2015, 06:46:20 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 06:40:48 PM

Quote from: Sprungli on April 04, 2015, 06:38:08 PM
Has it ever occurred to you that most people in this country don't give a single shit what other people believe?
Has it ever occurred to you these people aren't playing around and act on their violent beliefs?

There's an argument to be made that if you suppress them even more, you're magnifying the problem and increasing the result.

Sprungli · April 04, 2015, 06:51:20 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 06:40:48 PM

Quote from: Sprungli on April 04, 2015, 06:38:08 PM
Has it ever occurred to you that most people in this country don't give a single shit what other people believe?
Has it ever occurred to you these people aren't playing around and act on their violent beliefs?

Except that's untrue

Verbatim · April 04, 2015, 07:41:54 PM

Quote from: Isara on April 04, 2015, 02:41:00 PM

No, I just do not really share my more controversial beliefs because one too many people get upset.

R o c k e t · April 04, 2015, 07:52:39 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 02:39:53 PM

Quote from: Isara on April 04, 2015, 02:35:30 PM
Because the free world is built on the belief that you can say and believe whatever you want, and everyone has the right not to give a fuck.
This is not just talking. These people attack our countries.

It's people like you that give these people the freedom to destroy our culture and our people.

Did those people holding the signs pull out guns at any point during this and kill people?
If not, your point is towards an entire culture, of which not every person is an extremist.

Mordo · April 04, 2015, 08:22:56 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 04:14:07 PM

A peaceful demonstration against what? They were calling for the destruction of America.

Calling for and actually enacting are two very different things.

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It's both.

No, not really.

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You guys do nothing about immigration

Yeah I know. You can thank our endemic politically correct culture for that.

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you do nothing about child rape gangs, you do nothing about Brits going join ISIS in Syria, you do nothing to discourage extremism and violence.

Which I'm completely aware of. Clamping down on speech however, isn't the answer.

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It's a safe haven for Muslim terrorists here because you guys don't have the balls to actually do anything or force them to assimilate.

Safe haven? Nah man, that's Saudi Arabia. Say what you will about our PC culture in Britain, but Islamic terrorism we do not tolerate. We killed an innocent guy back in 05' simply based on suspicion.

Islam and its doctrines however, is another story.

Mr. Psychologist · April 05, 2015, 05:42:13 AM

It's for the same reason that yanks allow the WBC to walk around preaching death to all soldiers/gays/children/whatever will offend the most people.

It's a tricky one that I don't think has a right or wrong answer, there should be a more proactive effort on dealing with the hate preachers like Captain Hook and just sending him the fuck over to jordan to be tried and/or hopefully shot in the back of the head.

Then you have the mongoloids flying out to join ISIS. I'd actually say let them, send all of the degenerate traitors in our midst over to the world's biggest honeypot for them. Let them die of treatable diseases because they execute doctors, let them get shot down soviet Kommissar style when they run away in battle, let them get BTFO by Warthogs and Predator drones.

I really don't give a single flying fuck about someone who leaves the west to fight for jihad in fuckoffistan. That way they get to die a horrible death in some baking hot desert because that's one less extremist planning to bomb Boots here.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 'reason' for the 'incompetence' of governments at stopping them from heading out to syria and why we haven't gone completely Ham on ISIS yet is because they want the flytrap to be well and truly stuffed at the seams before they set it on fire <_<

Isara · April 05, 2015, 05:48:46 AM

Or maybe it's just incompetence. Future generations will have this debate.

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on April 05, 2015, 05:42:13 AM

why we haven't gone completely Ham on ISIS yet is because they want the flytrap to be well and truly stuffed at the seams before they set it on fire <_<

Mr. Psychologist · April 05, 2015, 06:00:51 AM

Quote from: Isara on April 05, 2015, 05:48:46 AM

Or maybe it's just incompetence. Future generations will have this debate.

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on April 05, 2015, 05:42:13 AM
why we haven't gone completely Ham on ISIS yet is because they want the flytrap to be well and truly stuffed at the seams before they set it on fire <_<

I'm sure we'll find out soon enough <.<

More Than Mortal · April 05, 2015, 09:43:20 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on April 04, 2015, 06:46:20 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 04, 2015, 06:40:48 PM
Quote from: Sprungli on April 04, 2015, 06:38:08 PM
Has it ever occurred to you that most people in this country don't give a single shit what other people believe?
Has it ever occurred to you these people aren't playing around and act on their violent beliefs?
There's an argument to be made that if you suppress them even more, you're magnifying the problem and increasing the result.

While I don't think we should suppress them, I haven't seen any literature which supports the idea. All the research I've read point to one really weird thing about Islamic militants: they're surprisingly normal.

challengerX · April 07, 2015, 03:26:19 AM

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challengerX · April 07, 2015, 03:28:20 AM

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challengerX · April 07, 2015, 03:30:14 AM

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Mordo · April 07, 2015, 11:39:55 AM

Quote from: challengerX on April 07, 2015, 03:26:19 AM

They do both.

So these guys you witnessed in the street were actually committing terrorist acts and protesting at the same time? I wish you had clarified this earlier.

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Except it is. These people recruit through hate speech.

They're recruited through culture and upbringing. Any rational thinking person that examines Jihadist rhetoric know it's absolute hogwash. To suggest that terrorists are recruited via speeches is pretty laughable, like, no offense.

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PC culture endemic in politics and law enforcement which allows terrorists to recruit others to destroy Britain.

It's pretty prevalent with street criminals, yeah sure, what with Rotherham and Rochdale etc, but terrorism? We're pretty strict on that. Unfortunately, our counter intelligence agencies tend to address the symptoms of the problem, instead of tackling the roots.

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It is the answer.

Show me one instance where policing thought has proven beneficial to society.

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These people shouldn't be allowed to talk in mosques either.

What is religious freedom

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Other respectable Imams should not allow them to spread their hatred.

I don't think you should be allowed to spread your inane, vapid bullshit either, but I don't call for you to be censored.

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Tell me, then, how you allow people that are sworn enemies of your country to parade around in your capital?

These guys were sworn enemies of the state? Strange how seem to know a lot about terrorists.

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Brits are so afraid to criticize Islam, to jail Muslims, to fight back, that they do nothing. How isn't that a safe haven?

People criticize Islam all the time in Britain (EDL, SDL Britain First etc). It's something called open discourse, which is not interchangeable with censorship.

Jester · April 07, 2015, 12:27:22 PM

Damn Darkies

challengerX · April 07, 2015, 12:48:11 PM

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Mordo · April 07, 2015, 02:58:07 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 07, 2015, 12:48:11 PM

You know damn well I meant extremists Muslims as a whole.

I've been referring to the protesters in your OP since this discussion began, but if you'd like to talk about someone else I'd be more than happy to.

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Then why the fuck are more and more Imams banning hate speech in their mosques?

Because that's perfectly within the Imam's right, seeing as how Mosques are private religious entities. It's not the state's right, however, which you seem to be advocating for.

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How did Hitler rally a nation behind his back based on hate speeches?

He didn't just rally a nation through "speeches" though. His rhetoric played a part sure, but it wasn't the primary component as to how he rose to power. National Socialism helped Germany to recover (albeit temporarily) from the post WWI era and the Treaty Of Versailles, which struck a cord with a lot of disillusioned Germans. In 1938, unemployment was practically extinct.

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The way you belittle speech as if it has no effect and can't radicalize and convert people is laughable.

I don't deny its effects. I'm probably the only one in this discussion to absolutely revere the impact it has on people, which is why I'm so opposed to your pro censorship argument.

All censorship does is galvanize and titillate people into reading up, and becoming a proponent of hate speech. It's human nature to explore something that goes against the grain. If you really want to tackle toxic ideologies, then open discussion is your best weapon.

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Just like you.

Yeah because mass censorship is gonna solve terrorism right enough. K.

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Nice loaded question.

What's loaded about it? All I'm asking you to do is provide examples to the argument your positing.

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They can think whatever they like. They just shouldn't be allowed to speak publicly and call for people to join their cause of killing people who don't want a worldwide caliphate.

"I'm challenger and I'm the arbiter of what people can and cannot say in public"

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Nice misinterpretation.

Except it's not. Any religious institution is welcome to say whatever they like so long as they do not enact it in real life. It's why the US tolerates the WBC.

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Any self respecting mosque would agree, and quite a few are starting to do this.

Again, that's perfectly within their right, but not the state's.

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People radicalizing young children should not be given attention. They should not be able to publicly speak to children.

What's more dangerous? Giving the state the power to enforce morality at gunpoint, or a couple of religious zealots who get to occasionally spout their vacuous propaganda?

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You think you're for freedom, but what you're doing is allowing people to destroy freedom through terrorism by forcing a whole country to be so politically correct that atrocities are allowed to be committed.

Pretty ironic, coming from someone who's positing a pro censorship argument.

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I love how you jump to straight to passive aggressive insults when you have nothing to say. Which is usually all the time.

Pot, meet kettle.

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Yes. People saying "death to America" are enemies of the state. In other news water is wet.

Last I recall, WBC aren't enemies of the state.

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Racist knuckle heads aren't valid critics.

EDL aren't racist. They'd actually resonate really well with you, what with being opposed to radicalized Islam. The only reason you think they're racist is because they're working class white guys, and working class white guys are the typical punching bag for the media to perpetuate the stereotype of racist advocates.

April 07, 2015, 04:24:31 PM

Free speech isn't fucking free speech if certain opinions aren't allowed. To say that you're not allowed to believe in ISIS's cause is ridiculous. Acting on it is completely different.

If I want to walk down main street wearing a KKK uniform and holding up a sign that advocates murdering black people, I should have every legal right to do so. Just as you'd have every right to yell and berate me for it.

challengerX · April 07, 2015, 04:39:11 PM

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