Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 10:40:14 AM

Eh you're getting confused.
Subjective pain would be something like psychosomatic pain.

Says who?

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Sentience is not simply the ability to feel something, it's the ability to feel something in response to something that isn't literally happening. A lot of people would say a dog mourns for their master, but really the dog knows, "That man scratches me behind the ears and feeds me, staying with him is a good thing." Animals don't have these abstract feelings that are subjective rather than objective, and that's what makes someone sentient.

Let's pretend for a moment that you're right. You're wrong, completely, but let's pretend for a moment that you're not wrong.

The fact that other organisms feel "objective pain" is precisely why it's wrong to torture and eat them. That's everything. Their capacity to suffer, regardless of their sentience, is the deal-breaker. It's wrong to harm animals. I mean, I feel like I'm talking to a preschooler, but I guess it's necessary sometimes.

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Subjective feelings are an abstract thought, and most animals are not capable of abstract thought.

Who cares?

Verb, if you're going to ignore centuries of philosophical work and pre-established definitions, then I just can't help you and you're actively making the choice to be ignorant.

But in regards, to whether or not animals are capable of abstract thought, which is what makes something sentient, if something is not sentient then nobody will mourn for it or care about the fact that it is gone, because of the fact that its family are of the same species and same cognitive capabilities.

You give away a cat's kittens at birth and the cat gives zero fucks.
It isn't capable of abstractly processing what could have been with those kittens.

It wouldn't matter to momma cat if you turned around and made kitty cat stew.
The humans might care, because cats are an animal we form emotional attachments to, but you don't see me eating dogs like the Chinese, do you?

That's why sentience matters, not because of the subject, but because of the subject's peers.

But that only applies to death.
As far as pain is concerned, if an animal is in physical pain, they don't begin suffering emotionally like a human would.
And I don't really see why physical suffering matters, unless the animal can form an emotional connection to that pain.

Basically you're just projecting yourself onto those animals and wondering "what if I was in that position?" and then reeling because of all of the emotional terror that you can contrive. But the animal can't. It's an egotistical approach to the world that forces you to put yourself in the position of others and assume they feel the same way you would.

You're biased about suffering because you suffer in an extremely different way than animals do.

The point of this wall of text, is that physical pain isn't the worst part of being in pain, it's the emotional response that animals are incapable of. Dying isn't the worst part of death, it's the mourning by loved ones that animals don't do.

The point of this wall of text, is that physical pain isn't the worst part of being in pain, it's the emotional response that animals are incapable of. Dying isn't the worst part of death, it's the mourning by loved ones that animals don't do.

I disagree, infinitely. Dying is the worst part of death. Suffering is the worst thing, ever, and we have an ethical responsibility of preventing it when we can.

I don't care that animals don't mourn. At all.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 11:20:11 AM

The point of this wall of text, is that physical pain isn't the worst part of being in pain, it's the emotional response that animals are incapable of. Dying isn't the worst part of death, it's the mourning by loved ones that animals don't do.

I disagree, infinitely. Dying is the worst part of death. Suffering is the worst thing, ever, and we have an ethical responsibility of preventing it when we can.

I don't care that animals don't mourn. At all.

Dying is a natural part of life and there's no point of putting it off.\

Like I said, you're just biased because you can't wrap your head around a mental state with no emotions because you're projecting, which is massively narcissistic.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 11:28:12 AM

Dying is a natural part of life and there's no point of putting it off.\

This doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Some animals suffer excruciatingly when they die.

...They ought not to.

...Duh.

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Like I said, you're just biased because you can't wrap your head around a mental state with no emotions because you're projecting, which is massively narcissistic.

I'm not thinking emotionally. I'm thinking logically.

Suffering is bad. Animals suffering is bad.

It's not that complicated.

Like I said, literally cannot stop projecting.
I think they named a flower after you.

Like I said, literally cannot stop projecting.

Yeah, the dog totally wasn't writhing in SHEER AGONY at the end, there. Aftering being shot.
That's just me projecting!

You are insane.

In. Sane.

Quote from: SuperIrish on July 05, 2015, 11:36:40 AM

Getting more efficient at it will mean less goes to waste, thetefore less animals are killed for food

This is called veganism.

Nah bro you kill living things too. Technically speaking, detritovores have the true moral high ground.

As for plants, plants don't suffer. So... That's just a pants-on-head retarded thing to say.

It's really retarded to conflate killing an animal for food and killing a plant for food.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 11:34:29 AM

Like I said, literally cannot stop projecting.

YouTube

Yeah, the dog totally wasn't writhing in SHEER AGONY at the end, there. Aftering being shot.
That's just me projecting!

You are insane.

In. Sane.

Why does it matter if it was experiencing physical pain, it's not like as its life was closing it realised it had never been to niagra falls or always wanted to go skydiving.

The dog literally did not care that it was dying, it only felt the physical pain of being shot.

You're just thinking about how you would feel if you were in that much pain.

Physical pain doesn't matter, only the way it makes you feel emotionally.

Quote from: SuperIrish on July 05, 2015, 11:40:48 AM

Nah bro you kill living things too.

The point of veganism is to do the best you possibly and feasibly can.

I am doing the best job that I possibly can.

Well really you could become a detritovore to do the best possible, but still veganism is an admirable effort.

And for plants, it's ending a life in much the same way of any living thing. Saying killing something that doesn't feel doesn't make it any better, otherwise it means I could eat paralysed-from-birth animals under the same premise without worrying about my conscious.

Well really you could become a detritovore to do the best possible

Why would that be the best possible?

And for plants, it's ending a life in much the same way of any living thing

Except ending a life isn't bad.

SUFFERING is bad.

Plants. Don't. Suffer.

SO your ethics are an emotional construct that you apply to the unshareable physical wellbeing of another?

I made no mention of emotions whatsoever.

You don't feel bad for someone when they get shots do you?

Yes, I do. Shots kinda hurt a little bit. I wouldn't want even that tiny little discomfort imposed on anybody.

Anyhow, you can only share emotions with someone, and if something can't be shared with you, it shouldn't matter to you. Of course you can experience pain for an animal if you PROJECT.

So the dog wasn't suffering, then.

Yep, you're insane. I reiterate:

If you don't think physical pain matters, then I hope you get raped by ten people at once. While on fire.

because it doesn't matter, right
it's nothing

Quote from: SuperIrish on July 05, 2015, 11:55:02 AM

Well really you could become a detritovore to do the best possible

Why would that be the best possible?

Detritovores only eat the refuse material of plants and other animals, and seeing as naturally dead plant refuse hasn't suffered and still contains nutrients...

Why are you talking about medical shots anyway? Did you watch the video?...

The dog was SHOT. By a cop, with a gun. Two or three times. It was writhing on the ground in agony.
Because it was shot.

christ

Yes, I was using a DIFFERENT example of pain than the one you used.
Is that hard to comprehend?

I needed to use an example that there was a pro to in order to illustrate my point.

Here though lets use the example you used.

If (hypothetically) being shot gave you super powers, would getting shot be that bad?
Not if you lived.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 11:59:31 AM

SO your ethics are an emotional construct that you apply to the unshareable physical wellbeing of another?

I made no mention of emotions whatsoever.

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You don't feel bad for someone when they get shots do you?

Yes, I do. Shots kinda hurt a little bit. I wouldn't want even that tiny little discomfort imposed on anybody.

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Anyhow, you can only share emotions with someone, and if something can't be shared with you, it shouldn't matter to you. Of course you can experience pain for an animal if you PROJECT.

So the dog wasn't suffering, then.

Yep, you're insane. I reiterate:

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 11:55:44 AM

If you don't think physical pain matters, then I hope you get raped by ten people at once. While on fire.

because it doesn't matter, right
it's nothing

You're purposefully choosing to ignore or misrepresent my argument.

Being raped by ten people at once would leave me with serious emotional scars.
If I didn't have emotions it would be fine as soon as they were done and I would never care again.

And I know you didn't bring up emotions, you were only talking about the physical side, which is something that can't be shared with you, but someone's emotions can. If it can't be shared with you it's not that you shouldn't care, it's that you literally can't, unless you project, which is narcissistic.

I wouldn't want even that tiny little discomfort imposed on anybody.

That's literally you saying you're fine with them getting awful diseases because you'd rather not put them in pain now.

I think we've run into two snags here.
1. You can't stop projecting, and therefore can't stop feeling pain that can't be shared with you.
2. You're not an "ends justify the means" type of person, which I am.

These are things we aren't going to resolve in debate.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 12:17:31 PM

Yes, I was using a DIFFERENT example of pain than the one you used.
Is that hard to comprehend?

and it was a stupid one, especially considering that you never really addressed the dog getting SHOT, and moved on to medical shots, making it look like you misinterpreted my post

smart move

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I needed to use an example that there was a pro to in order to illustrate my point.

LOL

so you're conceding that there are examples for which there are NO "pros"

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Here though lets use the example you used.

If (hypothetically) being shot gave you super powers, would getting shot be that bad?
Not if you lived.

they don't, though

so what's the point of the hypothetical

you're just wasting my time now

The point of the hypothetical was to address your example to make you feel better, and also illustrate the completely unrelated point I was making about the emotion of pain vs the actual feeling of it

Once again, I was trying to show you that the pain you would feel if you were shot feeling is majorly emotional and the pain the dog was in is just a physical reaction. So I did address your post, I just didn't tell you that you were right like you expect for some reason.

There don't need to be pros to pain if having a pro wouldn't make it better, and therefore only having cons doesn't make it worse. Because it's purely physical pain and doesn't mean nearly the same thing.

I don't think you're capable of wrapping your head around what I'm saying right now, and it seems to me like I've lost you altogether.

I really can't explain it to you any better, because you're not interested in learning anything about the difference between physical pain and the emotions caused by that pain, where one starts and the other stops.

The difference between that objective feeling and the subjective feeling that goes along with it is a tough philosophical concept, that you earlier said you don't believe in, but it is established, and it is a thing.