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Human nature and selflessness.

 
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In my college Psychology class they taught that no act is selfless because you do things to benefit yourself. Sure you would surely starve before your son, but there is gratification in getting your starving son food. Therefore it isn't truly selfless because you are gaining something: satification.
Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 07:34:42 PM by Merry Kitsune

 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:20:54 PM
A man would starve before he sees his son starve.
Which would give him solace. It would give him solace to know that he's allowing his son to survive in his place.

Solace is a form of self-gratification.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:26:42 PM
Quote from: Merry Kitsune on December 23, 2015, 07:25:03 PM
In my college Psychology class they taught that no act is selfless because you do things to benefir yourself. Sure you would surely starve before your son, but there is gratification in getting your starving son food. Therefore it isn't truly selfless because you are gaining something: satification.
No, you're gaining your son surviving. You're gaining a little kid not dying in one of the worst ways possible.
You're gaining both.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:28:02 PM
Sacrificing yourself for somebody else is completely selfless.
Thank you for uselessly restating your opinion and adding nothing to the discussion.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:29:00 PM
Nope.

I'm starting to realize it's people who have never committed real selfless acts that think this way.
That's because there are no selfless acts to commit.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:34:03 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 23, 2015, 07:29:46 PM
That's because there are no selfless acts to commit.
So if I jump on a grenade, I'm being selfish?

HAHAHA Wow.
Why would you jump on a grenade? Your scenarios are so vague and unrealistic.

I'm a vegan--that's one of the most selfless things I can think of, relative to this culture we live in. I still gain personal gratification from a number of things. I like that I'm doing the right thing (which is selfish), I like being pompous about it (which is selfish), and I really enjoy some vegan foods out there (which is selfish).

Still, most people would agree, I think, that veganism is, overall, more selfless than it is selfish.

Claiming that only the most selfish people could believe that there are no selfless deeds is just an impotent jab.
And an ad hominem.
Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 07:38:07 PM by Verbatim

 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:34:03 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 23, 2015, 07:29:46 PM
That's because there are no selfless acts to commit.
So if I jump on a grenade, I'm being selfish?

HAHAHA Wow.
I would like to say yes you would be selfless, but that could only be if you weren't doing it to save someone else.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Merry Kitsune on December 23, 2015, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:34:03 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 23, 2015, 07:29:46 PM
That's because there are no selfless acts to commit.
So if I jump on a grenade, I'm being selfish?

HAHAHA Wow.
I would like to say yes you would be selfless, but that could only be if you weren't doing it to save someone else.
What?
Saving someone gives you the good feeling of knowing they're most likely going to be safe. Aka gaining a positive emotion. Psychology really fucks with your brain, but I do have to agree with Verb in there is hardly a truly selfless deed. You help others because you know one day the favor should be returned, you give to the charity because it makes you feel good to help the poor, etc.. it's all because it makes you feel good, and if it makes you feel good then you are gaining from the situation.

 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:39:59 PM
To save people? There are countless soldiers who have done this. You gain NOTHING for yourself. You only save other people.
Martyrdom is selfish. All soldiers fight for a cause that they ascribe value to--so all soldiers are selfish.

You can argue that they are more selfless than they are selfish, and I wouldn't disagree with you.

But you can't tell me that they are 100% selfless. It's just a quixotic lie.
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There's nothing selfless about being a vegan, since you aren't really changing anything.
Only because non-vegans like you are holding us back. If more people were vegan, we could make a huge impact.

Currently, vegans save 200+ animals every year just by being vegan.
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I'm saying you've never committed a selfless act.
No one has.
Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 07:45:59 PM by Verbatim

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:49:59 PM
HAHAHAHA
Good argument. Totally not spammy and annoying at all.
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The cause of freedom is universal. There's no different perspective. A country defending itself against invaders.

Besides, I'm talking about jumping on a grenade to save other people. Not for a cause.
Which is selfish. It makes people feel good to do good things, so they do them, even if they have to make sacrifices.

This isn't difficult to understand.
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A man jumping on a grenade to save other people is committing a selfless act.
Not 100%.
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Except this figure is based sales.

200+ animals aren't literally let out of their cages and sent to run free.
Your point?
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Except people have.
Nope. Not once in human history.

 
 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Every act people commit is motivated by some form of self-gratification. Altruistic acts, such as jumping on a grenade, just come from a form of self-gratification which is selfless.

Selfless acts do exist, we just do them because they feel good, right or otherwise proper to do. That's all there really is to it.
Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 08:01:30 PM by The Meta Order

 
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Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 07:57:02 PM
Yeah I'm sure his body parts feel good.


The prospect of helping others is enough to prompt people to do good things, because the goodness of the act outweighs the pain. In other words, it feels good. In other words, it's selfish.

It's like, 99% selfless, but 1% selfish. That still means it's selfish.

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The irony.
LOL WE DISAGREE ON SOMETHING, THAT'S SO IRONIC!!!

No it isn't.

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How is being selfish. What does he gain?
The positive feeling of having done a good thing.

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That you aren't really saving animals.
But I am.

 
 
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I'm getting off on the fact that everyone is disagreeing with challengerX.

 
 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Argue about the tiniest bits of subconscious motivation and armchair philosophy that you want, but I don't give to veterans organizations (except Wounded Warrior Project, seriously, fuck that group and all of it's fraudulent and misleading ways) just to feel good about it.

 
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Quote from: DAS THE HALLS on December 23, 2015, 08:07:35 PM
Argue about the tiniest bits of subconscious motivation and armchair philosophy that you want, but I don't give to veterans organizations (except Wounded Warrior Project, seriously, fuck that group and all of it's fraudulent and misleading ways) just to feel good about it.
Keyword being "just."

Just because there's no selfless deeds, doesn't mean that all deeds are 100% selfish.
Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 08:09:18 PM by Verbatim

 
 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Quote from: Verbatim on December 23, 2015, 08:08:34 PM
Quote from: DAS THE HALLS on December 23, 2015, 08:07:35 PM
Argue about the tiniest bits of subconscious motivation and armchair philosophy that you want, but I don't give to veterans organizations (except Wounded Warrior Project, seriously, fuck that group and all of it's fraudulent and misleading ways) just to feel good about it.
Keyword being "just."

Just because there's no selfless deeds, doesn't mean that all deeds are 100% selfish.
Then provided that there's no malicious intents behind someone's altruistic behavior, would it really be so criminal to call it selfless?

 
 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 08:13:29 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on December 23, 2015, 08:04:53 PM
I'm getting off on the fact that everyone is disagreeing with challengerX.
You really are one of the most petty and insecure people I've ever seen.
I don't disagree with either of you; you're both talking past each other.

Challenger isn't acknowledging that all actions are motivated by the prospect of some kind of self-gratification; Verbatim isn't acknowledging that self-gratification can be obtained by acts which are otherwise objectively selfless.

As far as I'm concerned, the discussion is rather uninteresting.

 
 
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Quote from: DAS THE HALLS on December 23, 2015, 08:13:53 PM
Then provided that there's no malicious intents behind someone's altruistic behavior, would it really be so criminal to call it selfless?
No, it wouldn't be. I'm just arguing against this notion that there are 100% selfless deeds--there are none.

There are deeds that are far more selfless than they are selfish--donating to charity being one of them.

 
 
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