How bad does life have to get

More Than Mortal · February 04, 2015, 04:20:37 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:17:21 PM

But my point is one could argue the faster humanity is destroyed the less net suffering there would be.

It's not about a balance between gross utility and disutility to reach the least amount of net disutility as possible (if that were the case, I'm sure Verbatim wouldn't actually be an antinatalist), it's about removing the potential for disutility in the first place. I'll admit I struggle with the problem you name sometimes, so I'll let Verb handle the brunt of it, but I don't necessarily see how reducing the amount of net disutility faster is the logical "next step" from trying to stop the actualisation of disutility in the first instance.

Verbatim · February 04, 2015, 04:21:24 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:11:07 PM

Right, that was my point.

What was your point? I'm saying that natalism (being for procreation) is wrong, because by your "one bad apple spoils the bunch" logic, one shitty life makes it justified to end it all. Or, more aptly, to passively accept extinction via the abstention from procreation.

More Than Mortal · February 04, 2015, 04:22:38 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 04, 2015, 04:16:54 PM

or a godless Christian.

Well, y'know, I hate to be that guy.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:23:39 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · February 04, 2015, 04:24:55 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:23:39 PM

If the philosophy would result in forced non-reproduction (which it would), then it's genocide. There's just no two ways about it. It doesn't matter if in theory such and such is not supposed to happen, what matters is what would happen.

Even if it would happen, that's still not genocide. It's only genocide if I say, "Let's KILL EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO HAVE KIDS." And then I actually do it.

That's what genocide is, cupcake.

More Than Mortal · February 04, 2015, 04:25:07 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:23:39 PM

what matters is what would happen.

"It doesn't matter if Quakerism is pacifist, if some Quakers end up killing some people in an evangelical effort, Quakerism is obviously murderous".

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 04, 2015, 04:28:28 PM

Here's what we're saying here, Chally:

In the scenario that complete, 100% lack of resistance, total resignation to voluntary extinction, voluntary celibacy among humans-- is it genocide? It's not a question of "what would really happen", or "it's not probable"-- that's irrelevant. "Neither" is not a legitimate answer to "Would you rather be in Silent Hill or Raccoon City"; it would be impossible to actually be transported to either, and whether you'd want to go or not is irrelevant. Just like whether you believe voluntary extinction is impossible, it is irrelevant to the question.

Verbatim · February 04, 2015, 04:31:07 PM

Quote from: Prime Meridia on February 04, 2015, 04:28:28 PM

voluntary celibacy

Careful. We've been over this--there's nothing about celibacy in anti-natalism.

the rest is good tho

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:32:04 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 04, 2015, 04:32:40 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 04, 2015, 04:31:07 PM

Quote from: Prime Meridia on February 04, 2015, 04:28:28 PM
voluntary celibacy
Careful. We've been over this--there's nothing about celibacy in anti-natalism.

Error in word choice-- voluntary abstinence from procreation.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:33:46 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 04, 2015, 04:35:07 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:32:04 PM

This is really simple. You guys just refuse to accept that in practice, it'd be genocide.

And you refuse to understand that we aren't talking about practicality.

Yes or no: is VOLUNTARY extinction genocide? No "in practice", because that's irrelevant. We aren't talking about probability, or "how it would actually work out". It's an incredibly simple question. If every single human were to agree to not procreate, would it be genocide?

More Than Mortal · February 04, 2015, 04:37:54 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:32:04 PM

It is. Because if they kill in the name of Quakerism, Quakerism drove them to do it. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done it.

It's quite obvious that people can be wrong about the propositions that motivate them. Back to my theft analogy; if a Muslim claims Islam motivated him to steal bacon, there is quite a clear divide between the religious propositions he claims to follow and his actions.

He's either being dishonest or--in the case of both Quakers and antinatalists--he doesn't actually understand the content of the propositions which he claims motivated him.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:40:17 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 04, 2015, 04:42:13 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:40:17 PM

Quote from: Prime Meridia on February 04, 2015, 04:35:07 PM
Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:32:04 PM
This is really simple. You guys just refuse to accept that in practice, it'd be genocide.
And you refuse to understand that we aren't talking about practicality.

Yes or no: is VOLUNTARY extinction genocide? No "in practice", because that's irrelevant. We aren't talking about probability, or "how it would actually work out". It's an incredibly simple question. If every single human were to agree to not procreate, would it be genocide?
Practicality is all that matters.

Otherwise we might as well talk about flying pigs.

And I assume that (to use another thread in Serious as an example) the discussion of God's Omnipotence is uninteresting because it lacks practical application.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:44:15 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · February 04, 2015, 04:45:21 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:40:17 PM

Practicality is all that matters.

I'm gonna hold you to that. I don't ever wanna see you posting anything frivolous, ever.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:45:41 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · February 04, 2015, 04:47:12 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:45:41 PM

And the violent religious nutjobs seen to forget the part where they're not supposed to kill.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:47:48 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

More Than Mortal · February 04, 2015, 04:48:02 PM

P1: Propositions express content.

P2: Propositions which include a certain kind of content, necessarily exclude other kinds of content.

P3: It is logically possible for people to misunderstand propositions.

P4: It is logically possible for people to misunderstand the actual content of the propositions in question.

P5: The content of propositions is what motivates people's behaviour.

P6: Propositional content can only motivate people insofar as they understand it.

P7: Misunderstanding the content of certain propositions can motivate people to behave in ways which are not, in fact, commensurate with the propositions which nominally motivatives them.

C: Therefore, people can, in fact, act in ways which are in direct contradiction to the propositions they supposedly believe in simply because they are mistaken.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 04, 2015, 04:49:01 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:44:15 PM

Yup. He doesn't exist, and neither does omnipotence, so it's a waste of time.

Then I'm done discussing this. If you can't hold any merit in philosophy, then there's no point in discussing philosophy with you.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 04:53:25 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Verbatim · February 04, 2015, 04:55:54 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:53:25 PM

Anti natalism would be genocide in practice.

You will always be wrong.

This is getting absolutely nowhere; I'm done. Be ignorant and delusional for all I care.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 04, 2015, 04:57:18 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:53:25 PM

wasting your time

Considering new ideas and discussing philosophical quandaries may be a waste of time for you, but considering that a good deal of Serious deals with those things, it would appear that you're a minority in that belief. I'm not intending to be condescending in saying this, but if you don't want to discuss philosophy, then don't. You're just wasting yours and every other person's time by doing that.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 05:01:35 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 05:03:30 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · February 04, 2015, 05:16:06 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 04, 2015, 05:20:28 PM

Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 05:03:30 PM

Quote from: Prime Meridia on February 04, 2015, 04:57:18 PM
Quote from: challengerX on February 04, 2015, 04:53:25 PM
wasting your time
Considering new ideas and discussing philosophical quandaries may be a waste of time for you, but considering that a good deal of Serious deals with those things, it would appear that you're a minority in that belief. I'm not intending to be condescending in saying this, but if you don't want to discuss philosophy, then don't. You're just wasting yours and every other person's time by doing that.
I never said I don't discuss philosophy.

I said I'm not going to sit here and answer loaded questions and allow you guys to jerk each other off because in theory nobody would be violent. In theory humanity could stop all wars and fighting and get rid of poverty, but we won't. I live in the real world.

How is it a loaded question? Anti-natalism is-- by nature-- an improbable concept. I'm not even an anti-natalist, I have no stake in the spread of the philosophy. You claimed that anti-natalism (essentially a thought experiment) is genocidal; since anti-natalism calls for a voluntary abstinence from procreation, it can't be genocidal by nature. It has nothing to do with those already concepted, it's preventative like a condom. "Don't have children" can sum up the doctrine.

Since it deals with nonexistent beings, it can't involve genocide. There's nothing to kill. You can say with a degree of certainty what would happen in the case that it was applied practically, but again-- it's essentially a thought experiment. It's impractical, you can't argue it in terms of practicality.

You are also really good at instigating, Chally. I don't even mean that negatively, it's truly an amazing trait that if applied elsewhere, could really do things. In the practical world.

Verbatim · February 04, 2015, 05:24:23 PM

Quote from: Prime Meridia on February 04, 2015, 05:20:28 PM

You are also really good at instigating, Chally. I don't even mean that negatively, it's truly an amazing trait that if applied elsewhere, could really do things. In the practical world.

why would you encourage him