Hamas is far, far worse than Israel

More Than Mortal · October 06, 2014, 02:04:13 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 01:58:47 PM

The genocidal and psychotic ideology originated from the actions of Isreal

You have got to be kidding.

I'm sure the steaming piles of anti-semitic bullshit in the Koran has nothing to do with it. Why is it people are always looking for excuses in the face of religious atrocities? It can't be because their Muslims and believe in the corresponding theology, can it? No! Of course not, it's somebody else's fault.

Thomas Jefferson faced Muslim pirates from the Barbary States who explicitly stated their right to kidnap and enslave America sailors was given to them in the Koran, did Israel cause that?

Don't be ridiculous. To mitigate genocidal intentions to some imagined proximate cause is to excuse Hamas and their despicable, utterly immoral preachings.

Risay117 · October 06, 2014, 02:12:37 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 06, 2014, 02:04:13 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 01:58:47 PM
The genocidal and psychotic ideology originated from the actions of Isreal
You have got to be kidding.

I'm sure the steaming piles of anti-semitic bullshit in the Koran has nothing to do with it. Why is it people are always looking for excuses in the face of religious atrocities? It can't be because their Muslims and believe in the corresponding theology, can it? No! Of course not, it's somebody else's fault.

Thomas Jefferson faced Muslim pirates from the Barbary States who explicitly stated their right to kidnap and enslave America sailors was given to them in the Koran, did Israel cause that?

Don't be ridiculous. To mitigate genocidal intentions to some imagined proximate cause is to excuse Hamas and their despicable, utterly immoral preachings.

Funny, you talk how muslims are anti-semites when in history while the Christian killed and persecuted them the Muslims protected them. Look at the Crusades. The feelings are never religious but usually originate from political and real world events, and then they use religion as a way to support their points. You want to play the islam card i can play it as well and prove that what they are doing is wrong and unislamic. You are just fighting a fight where you are trying to aboslve one side of all guilt when in reality they have the equal blame.

Isreal was founded by terrorists, just as how ISIS was, and the Isrealis had a decent reason for doing such actions, as they are facing anti-semitism in the west. The same way the persecution the muslims are facing are causing these reactions. You cannot blame one side for the issue when both sides have equal hand in this issue.

Auspicious Rose · October 06, 2014, 02:13:49 PM

Didn't Hamas start the most recent conflict by firing some missiles on Israel? I fail to see how Israel is the bad guy here.

DAS B00T x2 · October 06, 2014, 02:17:11 PM

Quote from: Gatsby on October 06, 2014, 02:02:42 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T x2 on October 06, 2014, 01:54:37 PM
Quote from: Gatsby on October 06, 2014, 01:50:12 PM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on October 06, 2014, 01:37:43 PM

If Palestine wanted peace from the start they wouldn't be in the situation that they're in today.
Lol Youtube videos are not really the most accurate, you could find videos to support either side.
He's got most of the objective historical facts right though. A few omissions here and there but, not bad overall.
It was written by Sol Stern, an Israeli Jew. Kinda biased don't you think? I'm going to need sources and shit mang.

I'm not saying Hamas are good, they're shit and need to be wiped out tbh but so do Israels far right. The 2 state solution is the only solution.

I'd rather encourage people to read into the history of the region on their own than following anything I've provided. I'll admit a slight bias against Palestine for kickstarting Israel's lifetime of war.
Pay attention to the policies in the former Ottoman regions immediately following WWI, the refugees after WWII, the Mandate and it's effects, and the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

Risay117 · October 06, 2014, 02:17:33 PM

Quote from: Sentra on October 06, 2014, 02:13:49 PM

Didn't Hamas start the most recent conflict by firing some missiles on Israel? I fail to see how Israel is the bad guy here.

Eh that is quite a contentious issue but the reason of the conflict can be traced to the blockade that Isreal has had on the Gaza strip, and to the arresting of a number of Hamas members in the West Bank, after three Isreali teens disappeared and were killed. Whether it was Hamas or not i am not so sure. With this Hamas started firing the rockets, which was uncalled for, but why they did it is unknown.

Also remember Hamas and Fatah were in talks for a Unity government to move forward, but that was shut down after the isreali teens being killed.

More Than Mortal · October 06, 2014, 02:21:08 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 02:12:37 PM

Funny, you talk how muslims are anti-semites when in history while the Christian killed and persecuted them the Muslims protected them.

The Muslims also invented algebra, so what? This discussion has nothing to do with Christianity, stop moving goalposts.

Quote

The feelings are never religious but usually originate from political and real world events, and then they use religion as a way to support their points.

Trying to separate the two really is like splitting hairs. Religions are doctrines which expound on how to live your life, they are, by necessity, political in their nature. In the same way Jainism is bound politically with pacifism. Are you going to try and claim that the Caliphate or the Ottoman Empire originated from political motivations, as opposed to religious? Are you going to try and claim that this sort of genocidal attitude has nothing to do with Muslim theology? The Koran is expressly anti-semitic in its sentiments, and this is to be expected from a religion whose hadith calls for the death of apostates.

Quote

You cannot blame one side for the issue when both sides have equal hand in this issue.

You haven't been paying attention if you think I blame one side. I'm saying, emphatically and without moral confusion, that Hamas is morally inferior to Israel. As a digression, their religion has little to do with it; I'd split the difference between Stalinists and Leninists, if I had to.

You might think Israel has an equal hand in the cause of this crisis, and that's not something I'm closed to, but to claim that Israel is on an equal moral footing with the group calling for GENOCIDE then I can't describe you in any way other than morally insane.

Risay117 · October 06, 2014, 02:32:16 PM

Well yes they have claimed genocide against the jews but why well you can trace the reasons quite easily. The truth is the actions of Isreal has made many of the kids to hate jews, i know the hatred for jews firsthand when i hear some muslims talk about them. It is something that happens when the other side is demonized into animals or other beings.

The ottomon empire although religious was more of a political and ethnical movement. They removed the former rulers from power and took over not because of religion, but for power. To give themselves divine right they used Islam, like how some countries use Freedom to fight wars. I will maintain although Islam is used as a justification and support for the war by Hamas, the real reason no matter how hard they support it exist because of real world events.

Now i undersstand why Isreal makes it's decision and how they were treated back then but they have a part of the blame. Yes Hamas has done more horrible things, but if Isreal has to make the hard choice of integrating the next generations of Palestenians or to create a two state solution right now.

More Than Mortal · October 06, 2014, 02:42:07 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 02:32:16 PM

Well yes they have claimed genocide against the jews but why well you can trace the reasons quite easily. The truth is the actions of Isreal has made many of the kids to hate jews

And the fact that Hamas broadcasts anti-semitic cartoons to children has nothing to do with it? The Russian hoax "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" has nothing to do with it.

If you're going to blame Israel for the actions and intentions of Hamas, you'd be at a loss to explain away all of the other flagrant sources of anti-semitism in the world. It would be an incredible anomaly if Israel was the cause of this one anti-Jewish sentiment. Nonetheless, do you not think that a Hamas militant would kill a Jew, be he in New York or Tel Aviv? How can the actions of Israel possibly be used to justify murderous intentions to people across the globe?

It doesn't make sense. You can't maintain this anti-semitism to be a product of Israel's actions (although I've no doubt Muslim authorities will use the collateral damage of Israel's attacks for their own ends) when the Quran is a much more convincing and proximate cause. To claim Israel has more immediacy in the matter is to treat the Islamists if they weren't theologically genuine.

This is a religion that incited riots in the face of a Danish cartoon, and a fatwa on the head of a novelist. This religion faces a people who have been systematically abused throughout history, perhaps more than any other demographic. To claim Israel is the author of its problems is to either be intellectually dishonest, or not understand the importance of belief and moral community within religion.

Risay117 · October 06, 2014, 02:50:19 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 06, 2014, 02:42:07 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 02:32:16 PM
Well yes they have claimed genocide against the jews but why well you can trace the reasons quite easily. The truth is the actions of Isreal has made many of the kids to hate jews
And the fact that Hamas broadcasts anti-semitic cartoons to children has nothing to do with it? The Russian hoax "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" has nothing to do with it.

If you're going to blame Israel for the actions and intentions of Hamas, you'd be at a loss to explain away all of the other flagrant sources of anti-semitism in the world. It would be an incredible anomaly if Israel was the cause of this one anti-Jewish sentiment. Nonetheless, do you not think that a Hamas militant would kill a Jew, be he in New York or Tel Aviv? How can the actions of Israel possibly be used to justify murderous intentions to people across the globe?

It doesn't make sense. You can't maintain this anti-semitism to be a product of Israel's actions (although I've no doubt Muslim authorities will use the collateral damage of Israel's attacks for their own ends) when the Quran is a much more convincing and proximate cause. To claim Israel has more immediacy in the matter is to treat the Islamists if they weren't theologically genuine.

This is a religion that incited riots in the face of a Danish cartoon, and a fatwa on the head of a novelist. This religion faces a people who have been systematically abused throughout history, perhaps more than any other demographic. To claim Israel is the author of its problems is to either be intellectually dishonest, or not understand the importance of belief and moral community within religion.

You are correct in many ways, personally i look at it as the Dark Ages, where the religion has stagnated and the way at approaching the religion is lost in the past. The only thing i wanted to point out is that both have caused this issue, but this issue is also a product of the environment. Someone will need to be the bigger man and the one we will usually look to is Isreal.

The religion needs a new enlightment era that allows new idea to flourish and thus the slow removal of the old practices and rules of islam. I do not have a problem of people following the 5 tenants but following the Sunnah has always irked me. The Quran is also okay, because one can easily create meanings from the words the way they want to create it. And it is easy. Though i will never support the editing of the book as that leads to lies and apologising etc. It is there and let it exist, it is a historical article that has had a significant impact on our world whether good or bad.

More Than Mortal · October 06, 2014, 02:57:02 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 02:50:19 PM

It is there and let it exist, it is a historical article that has had a significant impact on our world whether good or bad.

I can agree with you there. Religion - perhaps by virtue of having no competitors in history - has been a massive aesthetic influence on our culture. The literature and architecture is simply breath-taking. My disparaging of religion is by no means a rejection of these aspects. The Muslim call to prayer is simply a divine piece of music - if it could be called that - and the KJV Bible is essentially for a historical understanding of English literature and politics.

My problem with religion lies in the metaphysics and its ethics; I'm glad we can agree on the aesthetic contribution at least.

Risay117 · October 06, 2014, 03:07:13 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 06, 2014, 02:57:02 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 02:50:19 PM
It is there and let it exist, it is a historical article that has had a significant impact on our world whether good or bad.
I can agree with you there. Religion - perhaps by virtue of having no competitors in history - has been a massive aesthetic influence on our culture. The literature and architecture is simply breath-taking. My disparaging of religion is by no means a rejection of these aspects. The Muslim call to prayer is simply a divine piece of music - if it could be called that - and the KJV Bible is essentially for a historical understanding of English literature and politics.

My problem with religion lies in the metaphysics and its ethics; I'm glad we can agree on the aesthetic contribution at least.

Well as far as i am concerned we agree on most of the basic facts, it is just the small details that causes differences, how much can we contribute to each side. I really love the culturall history that many civilizations have but the stagnation and the ethics although great for their time feel stagnated in the past, unwilling to adapt until a radical overthrow occurs.

My younger brother suggested to me this that if a species even foreign or extraterrestrial wants to progress technologically, it must also first progress ethically and culturally. For new ideas and systems to exist new ideas in all forms need to exist, and the tearing down of the old laws will occur. If humanity needs to progress we will need to progress from our past, evolve, and i can see that occuring in the Muslim communities. I mean it does look brutal but it is evolution in process. It is brutal and fast in its final stages and these are its final stages. Questions are popping up, the new are challenging the old fight between each other while those who are trying to bridge the gaps are trying to throw down the borders. It is chaotic and brutal but in a sense beautifull and sad, as the old is removed for the new but kept for us to remember as its lessons are invaluable.

Super Irish · October 06, 2014, 03:34:08 PM

Oh gawd not this again. I think we've all gathered that by this point, both sides are complete bastards and frankly I'd be happier if both sides just dropped dead.

Both sides either need to make peace or Israel can stop the prolonged torture and just annex what remains of Palestine, so I can hate them more. After all this, frankly neither side deserve any rights to the lands with the barbarity they've pulled over the last thousand years or so.

More Than Mortal · October 06, 2014, 03:37:23 PM

Quote from: SuperIrish on October 06, 2014, 03:34:08 PM

with the barbarity they've pulled over the last thousand years or so.

YouTube

Super Irish · October 06, 2014, 05:27:01 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 06, 2014, 03:37:23 PM

It seems every debate or argument I've seen usually results in a "chicken or the egg" argument where both sides try to say one or the other started it going all the way back to some ridiculously tiny event a 1000 years ago.

While a millenia ago it wasn't Israel V Palestine it was generally Muslim and Jews doing various acts. Hell, Ireland's Catholics had 800 years of shitty history with British Protestants and both have (largely) settled their differences at least to the point where the worst you'll get is the odd fight over a parade. Why can't they just do that?

More Than Mortal · October 06, 2014, 05:29:32 PM

Quote from: SuperIrish on October 06, 2014, 05:27:01 PM

Hell, literally every group has been barbaric in the last thousand years. That's just history.

Dustin · October 06, 2014, 05:58:36 PM

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Statefarm · October 06, 2014, 05:59:57 PM

Israel isn't perfect but anyone who supports Hamas is crazy.

Risay117 · October 06, 2014, 06:16:41 PM

Okay this may be off topic, but i have always wondered how Jewish people felt. Never had a Jewish friend.

Magos Domina · October 06, 2014, 06:29:14 PM

Quote from: Risay117 on October 06, 2014, 06:16:41 PM

Okay this may be off topic, but i have always wondered how Jewish people felt. Never had a Jewish friend.

Most Jewish people I've met have been pretty radical pro-zionist, there are others who I've met who call out zionism on what it really is (fascism) and reject the state of israel because of it's crimes.