How anybody, especially of a liberal persuasion, can deny this is absolutely beyond me.

It goes without saying that the Israelis have done some reprehensible things in their tenure of the land, but it pales in comparison to what Hamas and the Islamists have and would do given the opportunity. Let's take a look at Article Eight of Hamas's Charter: "Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."

If that isn't enough to cement the idea that Hamas is more undesirable (to put it mildly) than Israel, allow me to present some more, equally enlightened, quotes: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree."

Or: "I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill."

The reason Israel is reacting as though faced with frankly delusional narcissists is because they are faced with that. And let's not forget, Hamas is a democratically elected government, belying intentions of at least some of the Muslims living in Gaza. Don't get me wrong, the conflict in Gaza is horrendous but given the nature of Hamas and, of course, the population density of the Strip, it's not surprising that civilian casualties are so high.

The Charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal, going insofar as to reference the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and given the world's historical propensity to try and massacre the Jews, I can't say I blame them for their response. Every day you spend reading of an atrocity committed by Israel, you could've read several committed by Islamists.

Indeed, Israeli soldiers have unfortunately used Palestinians as human shields in the conflict, but do you know who else has and institutionally advocates it? Hamas. Could you imagine how morbidly comical it'd be if Israel tried to use its own civilians as human shields, and yet Hamas do it because they know it works.

Obviously, a State based around a religion should be offensive to anybody living in the 21st Century. However, two facts must be recognised. First, the Muslim States are beyond comparison in their evils with Israel. Secondly, the Jews are probably second-most "deserving" of a State based on theology, and first on the basis of security.

Hamas is far, far worse than Israel

I disagree, no I wont get into a discussion about it.

Have fun kids.

Quote from: Kiyohime on October 06, 2014, 01:17:44 PM

Quote

Hamas is far, far worse than Israel

I disagree, no I wont get into a discussion about it.

Have fun kids.

If you're going to offer us a position on the matter, you should at least have the intellectual integrity to support it. Not that your views are generally unknown here, but it would seem prudent to not offer your opinion on a discussion you don't want to have.

I was saying I would rather not because

A) I would just be beating the same old drum beat you have all heard a thousand times from me

and

B) The topic of Israel makes my blood boil, it's an issue I'm deeply passionate about and while I'm currently still a mod it would be distasteful to lower myself into another slogging match.

So yeah that's why I won't explain my position on it, but you're right you've all heard it before so keep it civil

Not this fracking argument again. Just because someone is worse does not excuse you for your own fracking actions. For fracking sakes each of them are horrible in their own ways and one is the direct result of anothers actions. One has short term evil action while the other has a more long out drawn out evil plan. Both are fracking tards that deserve to frack themselves to oblivion. But sadly that means many innocents will get caught in the crossfire.

"Hey guys, let's do away with moral priorities because both sides have done wrong things!"

I'd sooner shoot a serial killer than a second-degree murderer.

Lets not even get started on Israels use of chemical weapons

White Phosphorous is not a chemical weapon and legal in warfare.

Oh frack you forget who created the serial killer,

The genocidal and psychotic ideology I just demonstrated that Hamas holds is probably a good place to start.

and the second-degree murderer, well to avoid getting first degree murder charges plans out the murder in a way that the person commits suicide or kills themselves in an accident

. . .

Okay?

I literally have no idea what the hell you're talking about, and am currently questioning your understanding of second-degree murder. . .

Or the analogy as a whole.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 06, 2014, 01:40:51 PM

Quote from: Gatsby on October 06, 2014, 01:27:08 PM

Lets not even get started on Israels use of chemical weapons

White Phosphorous is not a chemical weapon and legal in warfare.

Only because no one has made it illegal specifically. Though it is not allowed according to treaties that ban certain types of weapons. Also its usage in civilian location is illegal.
http://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/white-phosphorus-munitions

So? I'm not going to lose any sleep when Hamas uses it also.

Quote from: Madman Mordo on October 06, 2014, 01:37:43 PM

YouTube

If Palestine wanted peace from the start they wouldn't be in the situation that they're in today.

Lol Youtube videos are not really the most accurate, you could find videos to support either side.

He's got most of the objective historical facts right though. A few omissions here and there but, not bad overall.

Quote from: Madman Mordo on October 06, 2014, 01:37:43 PM

YouTube

If Palestine wanted peace from the start they wouldn't be in the situation that they're in today.

Lol Youtube videos are not really the most accurate, you could find videos to support either side.

It's a lot better than screaming at anything pro Israel/anti Palestine/anti Hamas until you're blue in the face. I've yet to see an intelligent, well structured pro Palestinian argument that doesn't resort to ad hominem or instant dismissal of anything that even hints at criticizing Palestine.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 06, 2014, 01:51:56 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on October 06, 2014, 01:49:06 PM

White Phosphorous is one of those things that just should be outright bant. I'm not one to get pissy over the nasty parts of war, but some stuff crosses the line. WP is one of them.

Hamas uses it also.

Good for them .-.
It's still a horrific substance, it should be illegal everywhere. Period.

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing the ethics of the situation.

Who is worse, the man who uses a knife in self-defence or the man who uses a knife for the sake of premeditated murder?

It can be a trial of two criminals, as it probably should be, but I'd rather see the worse element dealt with first. Nothing good will come of giving Hamas any more legitimacy than it has while strangling Israel at the same time.