Former British Army commander says allowing women on the front will "cost lives"

More Than Mortal · July 10, 2016, 05:30:15 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-soliders-front-line-infantry-british-army-commander-tim-collins-no-place-for-woman-a7129271.html

Quote

Lifting the ban on women in combat roles will "drag our infantry to far below the required standard" and put people at greater risk of dying, according to a former SAS commander.

"The infantry is no place for a woman, and to permit them to serve in close combat roles is a pure politically correct extravagance," Colonel Tim Collins has said, following David Cameron's announcement on Friday that women will be allowed to perform combat roles in the army.

He added: "No one pretends that allowing women onto the front line enhances the army’s capabilities."

BaconShelf · July 10, 2016, 05:31:53 PM

inb4 class spergs out

maverick · July 10, 2016, 05:33:11 PM

Yeah Class is just going to say he doesn't care.

challengerX · July 10, 2016, 05:55:24 PM

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MyNameIsCharlie · July 10, 2016, 06:44:32 PM

Well, to be fair, I expect this reaction from him. He's from a generation that this wasn't even thought about. There were former police saying women would cost live on patrol too.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 10, 2016, 06:57:09 PM

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Mordo · July 10, 2016, 07:01:35 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 06:44:32 PM

Well, to be fair, I expect this reaction from him. He's from a generation that this wasn't even thought about. There were former police saying women would cost live on patrol too.

"he's an old waciss meanie so his opinion is invalid"

"never mind his myriad life experience and expertise in the field he presumes to talk about, he's from the NASTY bigot gener8shun :^((("

MyNameIsCharlie · July 10, 2016, 07:34:34 PM

I love all these words the Conservative Moral Warriors stuffed in my mouth. I don't expect this man to have any other opinion. He's not being sexist, not directly at least. But this opinion is common in that generation.

Also, there are people who've been in combat who say women could fight without detracting from overall unit effectiveness. There are teo sides to this.

More Than Mortal · July 10, 2016, 07:36:10 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 06:44:32 PM

He's from a generation

Give me a fucking break. If you're going to judge the guy based on how you think he fits into your pre-chosen narrative--rather than considering him as, oh I dunno, a former commander of one of the best special forces in the world--you're going to find yourself in an echo-chamber of your own devising.

Some old people are actually capable of thinking critically, and are not simply "old-fashioned" when they disagree with you. And simply saying you "expect" it from somebody his age doesn't actually mean anything; it's not even an argument. It's just you being arrogant.

Quote

There were former police saying women would cost live on patrol too.

Policing is not the same as combat. It's barely even similar.

Now how many women SWAT do you know?

MyNameIsCharlie · July 10, 2016, 07:54:40 PM

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/one-of-the-guys-the-first-female-swat-team-member/article_1ba075db-2091-57ce-8fae-530153aa7e56.html

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/02/26/exclusive-the-women-of-philadelphias-swat-team/

More Than Mortal · July 10, 2016, 07:57:11 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 07:54:40 PM

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/one-of-the-guys-the-first-female-swat-team-member/article_1ba075db-2091-57ce-8fae-530153aa7e56.html

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/02/26/exclusive-the-women-of-philadelphias-swat-team/

You're completely missing my point if you think I was asking you to try and prove your argument with the existence of female SWAT members.

The point is that SWAT is more comparable to being in the military than policing; but unlike policing, and much like the military, there are very few women in such positions. This poses pretty obvious limitations for drawing comparisons.

MyNameIsCharlie · July 10, 2016, 08:06:05 PM

I'm saying that this argument has been made before.

More Than Mortal · July 10, 2016, 08:13:38 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 08:06:05 PM

I'm saying that this argument has been made before.

You mean to say an argument was made, by somebody, at some point, somewhere, which led to the same conclusion as this?

Yeah, thanks for contributing absolutely fuck all to this discussion.

MyNameIsCharlie · July 10, 2016, 08:18:52 PM

This argument happened about female fighter pilots, MP's, SWAT, sailors...

To date none of the arguments against have been proven true.

More Than Mortal · July 10, 2016, 08:32:32 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 08:18:52 PM

To date none of the arguments against have been proven true.

People who say shit like this are usually not that familiar with the evidence and usually think "Hmm, I haven't seen anything in the news about female fighter pilots under-performing, so what's the issue?" I'd also ask you to note that none of those--apart from SWAT, which I've already dealt with--is all that comparable to being an infantryman on the front-line. Ironically, there are actually anatomical reasons why women are better able to experience extreme G-force than men.

Here is an overview of the debate by GPJ. The recent experiment by the Marine Corps found that, on average, women are more likely to suffer injury, not as accurate at shooting and less effective at performing basic battlefield activities like retrieving wounded. The female skeleton is also more prone to breakages.

The IDF and Australian military have also expressed concerns about the way male soldiers act around female comrades; its not easy to deprogramme men from instinctual protectiveness. Especially not from an enemy that has no trouble using its own women as human shields. . .

MyNameIsCharlie · July 10, 2016, 09:06:21 PM

Being more likely to be injured and shooting less effectively is directly tied to training. The marines have long been criticized for training men and women to two different standards.

As to skeletal strength... It really has no bearing on this. The rigors soldiers go through isn't enough to snap bones. Frankly I don't know why you brought it up. I am a vet. I do know.

For the last one... It's essentially saying that then men are more rapey around female soldiers. That's the dumbest reason to disallow females. Men will just have to learn to keep it in their pants.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 10, 2016, 10:37:08 PM

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July 10, 2016, 10:53:54 PM

Morality and ideals are far more important than human life. Soldiers sign up to die every day, it means NOTHING if they're fighting to protect an evil and fucked up society.

MyNameIsCharlie · July 11, 2016, 12:36:21 AM

Quote from: E S O T E R IC on July 10, 2016, 10:37:08 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 09:06:21 PM
I am a vet. I do know.
MOS? Time frame? Your job and the time you did it have a pretty big bearing on what you'd experience.

11B10

94-98

MyNameIsCharlie · July 11, 2016, 12:37:14 AM

Yes, Clinton era and a dirty nasty leg.

But I earned my blue braid

More Than Mortal · July 11, 2016, 04:50:17 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 09:06:21 PM

It's essentially saying that then men are more rapey around female soldiers.

Being instinctively protective of women is "rapey"?

Also, since I'm pretty sure you've said before that you haven't seen combat, why should I take your word as an infantryman over that of a former SAS commander? You don't get to dismiss the guy based on his age and then try to pull up your own military credentials in response.

MyNameIsCharlie · July 11, 2016, 09:41:26 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 11, 2016, 04:50:17 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 09:06:21 PM
It's essentially saying that then men are more rapey around female soldiers.
Being instinctively protective of women is "rapey"?

Also, since I'm pretty sure you've said before that you haven't seen combat, why should I take your word as an infantryman over that of a former SAS commander? You don't get to dismiss the guy based on his age and then try to pull up your own military credentials in response.

Say what you will, the fact of the matter is that women are already in combat. And they perform as well as the men. In Afghanistan, MP's are in almost as much combat as infantry.

It's just a matter of time.

July 11, 2016, 10:09:06 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 11, 2016, 04:50:17 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 09:06:21 PM
It's essentially saying that then men are more rapey around female soldiers.
Being instinctively protective of women is "rapey"?

Comes from the same ridiculous and toxic macho mindset. People throw in the words "instinctively" to make things sound like they're inseparable from reality, but you can overcome biological urges. Just because men are biologically wired to "protect" women doesn't mean you can't discard that sexist and idiotic urge.

Dan · July 11, 2016, 12:37:20 PM

Quote from: E S O T E R IC on July 10, 2016, 06:57:09 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 10, 2016, 06:44:32 PM
Well, to be fair, I expect this reaction from him. He's from a generation that this wasn't even thought about. There were former police saying women would cost live on patrol too.
Right, and as we all know, every generation is more morally upstanding and intelligent than the last. This guy is just on the Wrong Side Of History™.

yep.

challengerX · July 11, 2016, 03:39:30 PM

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More Than Mortal · July 11, 2016, 06:33:11 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 11, 2016, 09:41:26 AM

And they perform as well as the men.

Citation needed.

MyNameIsCharlie · July 11, 2016, 08:27:03 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 11, 2016, 06:33:11 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 11, 2016, 09:41:26 AM
And they perform as well as the men.
Citation needed.

Here's 10.

Women are distinguishing themselves regardless of what is being said against them.

But really, our discussion means very little. They're in combat now. They can't serve in units designated as combat units, that doesn't stop people from shooting at them, and them returning the favor.

Which is more than I can say for most of the users on this forum

Nascent Email · July 15, 2016, 11:22:21 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 11, 2016, 08:27:03 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 11, 2016, 06:33:11 PM
Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on July 11, 2016, 09:41:26 AM
And they perform as well as the men.
Citation needed.

Here's 10.

Women are distinguishing themselves regardless of what is being said against them.

But really, our discussion means very little. They're in combat now. They can't serve in units designated as combat units, that doesn't stop people from shooting at them, and them returning the favor.

Which is more than I can say for most of the users on this forum

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/local/military/article43452096.html
https://sofrep.com/42761/really-happened-women-ranger-school-class-06-15/
http://www.people.com/article/female-ranger-school-graduation-planned-advance
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308795/Women-Army-s-Ranger-School-fail-physical-assessment-period-cut-course.html

This is going to end excellently.