I was never asking you to feel guilty or responsible for the state of the world. You initially conveyed to me that poor people are unsuccessful because they're lazy, not because they don't have special opportunities like the people born into the first world. Whether you meant something else or whether you've moved on from that position is irrelevant, I'm just going to take it that we're closer to the same page than either of us originally believed. However there are still a few kinks we need to work out.

If that's how you interpreted it, then that's how you did. That certainly wasn't what I meant to convey. I've been taking this thread a bleedthrough/extension from the intelligence seperation thread, because it appeared to basically follow on from that.

Firstly, and maybe as a psychologist

I'm not one yet.

you should easily understand why people think like this, but no one wants to say they have it easy. I get that. I get that all the time in every argument with all kinds of people. I'm not new to seeing people whimper and cry about how hard they have it even though they're damned lucky to be where they are. Relative to the rest of the world, when they see you complaining about how hard you have it even though you live in a shelter designed by an engineer not built out of mud and sticks; even though you have easy access to food and water rather than relying that your UN shipment comes this month because you've been dislocated to avoid the war; even though you have easy access to healthcare because where you live they don't just keep reproducing to make up for the fact that the mortality rate is so high; even though your society forces you to get an education while the people on the other side of the world have to pay and beg to get an education. No I get it, no one lives a perfect life with no problems. But at this point you're just ignorantly blowing past the fact that there are billions of people in the world that would do anything to be born with opportunities and luxurious you should be so grateful for; opportunities and luxuries you did not work for, but simply born with.

As I have said numerous times, I am under no illusions that life in the developed world is far more luxurious than the third, even for those at the bottom of the ladder. But as I also keep saying, just because you have a house and clean water doesn't mean that you don't have to deal with other problems, and I don't mean trivial shit either. Broken families, rampant mental illness and oligarchs shitting down on whatever benefits the poorer to line their own pockets. Sure, maybe depression isn't as bad as living in a literal minefield, but that sure as fuck doesn't mean it's a walk in the park. Or having your family torn apart by psychosis and alcohol instead of war, the result is still the same. This is the point I've been trying to make, running water and a brick house doesn't make life a walk in the park, but it's clearly a grade above the third world living standards.

Secondly, you've developed this irrational hatred of social justice. I've asked you before to define it, and I believe you do understand that it means equality. So here's the problem: because of the time you've been spending here, you've been influenced by the sour culture of this forum that there isn't such a thing as inequality. And I know what you're thinking, 'I don't hate social justice and inequality, I hate the Tumblr SJWs who hate men.'

Alright, this one again.

*sigh*

Right, I don't have a problem with social justice, equality or feminism. What I do have a problem with is Tumblr idiots, not because of some opposing ideology but because I find it insufferably annoying. And they can hate men all they want, I just won't give them the time of day. Not because they are Feminazis/SJWs/Whatever, but because they oppose or impede true equality and instead clog the place up with petty quibbling and bitching about downright absurd bollocks.

Frankly, that's a meaningless distinction because you've never actually witnessed that culture for yourself, you just regurgitate the troll posts and form the conclusion that there's a real threat that men are going to become oppressed.

And you know this how? Oh wait, you don't. I have seen this shit firsthand, not just regurgitated troll posts as you call them. I find those funny, but that doesn't mean they are the only time I've seen SJW twonks.

When you think about that logically, you can clearly see how ridiculous it is, but you subconsciously go along with that anyway and you let your self defense mechanism take over. For you, anyone who recognizes inequality is a SJW troll. That's how far you've fallen. Feel free to redeem yourself, but all your posts here show that clear enough.

Haha, just no. Seriously, that's just flat out incorrect. I'll elaborate after the next part.

Look at the beginning of this thread: you were not even trying to give me logical arguments, you're calling me a SJW troll right off the bat and giving me emotional arguments about how maybe the poor people have it hard, but their problems still aren't as important as yours.

*sigh*
Like I said, I genuinely thought you were trolling here. I even sent you a PM over that, not because I think that anyone holding that view has to be trolling but because to put it simply, you bait or troll or whatever you want to call it. As I also said, if you seriously hold those views then I'll discuss them properly (as I am now of sorts). What I'm not entirely fond of is super duper serious discussions over shit because I just don't enjoy it, but anyway. And I've already addressed this point up there^

Third of all, there's a reason why I'm even bothering to discuss this. Maybe you've noticed how cynical I've become when it comes to changing other people's minds, but if not, then just know that I don't even bother anymore. I find it both pointless and nearly impossible. The only time when I will bother is if I care about the people I'm talking to. And I know that both you and Meta are both logical and rational people. But you have to stop forming your arguments like walls around yourself and making self justification your number one priority. Look, I'm not asking you to feel guilty, I'm asking you to feel grateful, and even though I know it's hard to admit, but that you have it easier than others.

Yeah, I hit that same wall a long time ago.
Meta is probably the more logical/rational of the two of us, but that's really a side point <.<
As for defensive arguments and self justification, that's perhaps a fair point. It's also a natural reaction to an offensive argument (Not as in hurr offendud but you get what I mean).

This final part depends on your frame of referencing though, I fully accept that I have it much easier than any peasant in the third world and that's just not even up for questioning. Where I was bringing up the comparison was within the society, not across them.

When I compare myself with those who came from similar socio-economic backgrounds in school, (This is where my arguments ITT stem from, that NUT thread) I worked hard, I was born smarter or whatever explanation you want to choose for intelligence. While they played football I was reading books, while they were fucking around and going to parties, I was doing homework and additional subjects. So because I worked hard/was born bright, I ended up at the top end of the school with a shitload of GCSEs.
And the point about an enviroment not conducive to learning is one that I tend to call bollocks on, simply because I managed to do all this shit whilst looking after my three younger brothers (I was 12-15 for this period of time), my drunken and psychotic mother and any other shit that was thrown at us.

Anyway, that's a fuckload of typing and I still have to pack for tomorrow so I doubt I'll be back on until the evening and possibly not until tomorrow.

Because both of you were on a track to seek sympathy from an INTJ personality type.

You what?

I'm not after sympathy, I'm explaining that not everyone has it easy in the first world simply because they are in the first world.

You just blew past where I said that people in the first world don't have it perfect. If you were actually trying to work with me here you wouldn't have bothered with this part of your post.

Actually you are right on that part, for some reason I just didn't see it. I'm not covering my ass on it either, I just plain didn't see that part. Call it selective blindness if you want, but yeah.

Okay now here is where the problem is and it's due to the negative influence of the sour culture of the forum. How many people do you actually think there are whose political agenda it is turn the privileged groups of society into oppressed minorities? Would you not say there are far more people who simply want equality? Would you not say that this group of people you don't like has so little political power with goals so unrealistic that to actually become an oppressed minority is not a threat at all? So why are you even concerned with it?

This is where I think it's important to once again draw a clear distinction.

I don't count SJWs as looking for equality, they are idiots on tumblr and twitter with an axe to grind against who they perceive to be oppressing them, when their examples are trivial at best and downright laughable at worst.
If you have a different definition of SJW then this is a miscommunication, but I don't count them as actually looking to make the world a better place at all. Just butthurt mirrors of the idiotic Fedorable MRA movement (Although that's technically a mirror of the SJWs)

The sour culture of the forum as you put it, is just how you perceive it here. It's not an attitude exclusive to this forum and it's certainly not rare on the internet to find people hacked off with SJW horseshit. I'm in the middle ground on it, I find it funny because I think that it's retarded but also annoying because it distracts from genuine issues faced by humanity, not just Men or Women. My bias/stake in this kind of crap is heavily leaning towards mental healthcare, when there is a person killing themself every fourty fucking seconds, I'm not sorry that I have no crocodile tears to shed over some landwhale shrieking about fat acceptance or some Fedoracore MRA saying how Rape is okay because it's natural. You assume that just because I don't like SJWs that I've been twisted/warped into someone who hates social justice when that's just plain wrong. I don't like it but I have other priorities that matter to me.

Do you get where I'm coming from yet?

Read what I said to Madman earlier, too.

You may have a point here, but at the same time I simply see it as a running joke. Whenever door posts some bait, I put 'inb4fedoramaymays' because that's typically where his stance is associated with. Sorry door, but it is.
(Inb4edgybuzzwordmemes) And with the opposite side of the spectrum, it's SJWism that's the pisstake. It's hard to tell though, either you have never trolled/baited/pissed around (which I would genuinely find hard to believe) or you have (Like just about everyone on the internet has). When it's not clear that you are being serious, the default stance becomes trolling. For everyone. Because that's typically all you see on all sides of the spectrum.
/rambling.

I'm pretty sure you're aware that there are statistics that show that people born poorer have a smaller chance to succeed. If the environment isn't a factor, then what is it? Have humans really undergone evolution that fast? It's easy to get caught up in the emotional, personal arguments, and as you can see, I've said nothing about where I come from.

I would argue that they have, not in any obviously overt manner but through whatever mechanism you want to call it, you have people who are born destined for the top. It's not exclusively genetics and it's not exclusively environmental but it's certainly to do with both.

Yeah, the people born at the bottom are unlikely to break through to the highest tiers of society. Is that unfair? Perhaps. Should we change everything ever to give people a perfectly equal chance to succeed? No.

Not because I oppose equality, but because that would mean dragging those at the top down. (I'm talking about schooling here). It is hard for me to see it from another perspective, because for whatever reason I ended up as a gifted child. I don't prance around and make a big deal of it, but it is relevant here. Despite being born into a poor family, I was a pretty smart little bastard. Then all the way until middle school I was constantly hamstrung by people who were thicker than me, I'd do all of the work in minutes while the class took an hour. I'd read a 600 page book in a day, whatever stupid examples you care to imagine and they apply. And yes, it has left me irritated because I didn't end up reaching my full potential, or even particularly close to it. Simply because I was stuck with a class of people who weren't at the same stage as I was. So that's why I end up biased on this particular front.

But don't try and apply that further than education, my personal axe to grind certainly clouds my judgement on it but that's my problem. It doesn't mean that I've been corrupted into some fascist idiot by a few trolls on a forum.

Seriously, if there is anything that still needs clearing up then fire away. What I won't stand for is someone claiming that I'm looking for sympathy, I'm being led astray by trolls or that I've been embittered by shitposting and Jaythenerdkid.

>doesn't read thread

Standards of living bro. I bet you'd complain if you were force to go a month without any A/C, hot water, toilet paper, and other commodities you have easy access to. Point is that everybody has a SoL

SoL = Standard of Living?

No, he means that everyone has a favorite Slice of Life animu that they wouldn't want go without being able to watch.

I hate to admit that Slice of Life is what came to mind when I read SoL <.<