The whole "noble savage" meme needs to die off.

Quote from: Azumarill on October 13, 2015, 12:52:25 PM

YOU are the one who claimed that they refused to cooperate.

Intercooperation, Azu, as in banding together; there wasn't enough unity among the various Indian tribes to effectively resist the European settlers from expanding. I'm not saying that they didn't try to intermingle with settlers. Hell, natives in French territory (sans the Iroquois, but that's because the French tried to help the Algonquins) loved the settlers and were pissed when they got booted out post-F&I War.

Quote from: Azumarill on October 13, 2015, 01:08:16 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 01:00:27 PM

Quote from: Azumarill on October 13, 2015, 12:52:25 PM

YOU are the one who claimed that they refused to cooperate.

Intercooperation, Azu, as in banding together; there wasn't enough unity among the various Indian tribes to effectively resist the European settlers from expanding. I'm not saying that they didn't try to intermingle with settlers. Hell, natives in French territory (sans the Iroquois, but that's because the French tried to help the Algonquins) loved the settlers and were pissed when they got booted out post-F&I War.

Look at the Pueblo Revolt then. It is commonly thought that Popé convinced local bands of Navajo and Apache to aid his group of Pueblo when they expelled the Spanish in 1680. Popé's Pueblo held its independence for about 12 years but they were experiencing a nasty drought, and Apaches/Navajos began raiding out of desperation, and the increasingly suffering Pueblo people resisted Popé's call to further expel the Spanish from other Pueblo lands. The independent Pueblo fell back under Spanish rule because of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblo_Revolt


There's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh%27s_Confederacy

and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Confederation (eventually these illinois people were pushed out of their lands by iroquois and disease)

You aren't saying anything about this that I don't know or disagree with.

Let me rephrase the contents of that first thing you had quoted, because I think you're misunderstanding the point I was making: if there was a greater unity between native American tribes before the mid-17th century, there would have been a great chance that the European settlers would have been repelled. But there weren't any effective resistances before then (The Pueblo repelled the Spanish, but they ended up returning later just like you said), so that didn't happen.

Quote from: Avatar on October 13, 2015, 11:06:52 AM

Can we not? If you want your own holiday then make it happen, don't just rename another one.

to be fair, it's not like anything of value would be lost if we did change it

except for maybe our childhood perception of columbus before we learned the truth about him

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 13, 2015, 10:13:08 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 01:12:51 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 13, 2015, 12:55:16 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 12:09:29 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 13, 2015, 12:01:56 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 12, 2015, 11:53:14 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 12, 2015, 11:29:08 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 12, 2015, 11:03:19 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 12, 2015, 11:25:08 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 12, 2015, 01:00:11 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 08, 2015, 10:43:39 AM

Personally, I'm for this. Europeans didn't discover the Americas. People were already here.

Discuss

I figure the purpose of such a holiday as Columbus Day would be to celebrate the achievements of your ancestors, not to twist them into a means of white guilting everyone.

It's not about making you feel guilty. It's about stopping the whitewash of history that paints a monster as a great man. Columbus was as bad as Hitler or Stalin. Read up on what he did. He ordered the rape, murder and enslavement of an entire people. He committed genocide and got a national holiday out of it.

You go ahead and repeat that to every America you meet, every little kid and young impressionable person you meet, and you tell me how they respond to it. There's nothing wrong with coming to terms of your people's history, in fact I'd consider it the duty of every citizen to know their country's past, my country New Zealand has a similar story; But what your asking for is nothing short of self flagellation, and that is not going to achieve anything beneficial to anybody.

Several states already feel as I do

Even if everybody in the entire world missed the point, then the only thing that implies, is that everybody has missed the point. Do you honestly not understand the kind of message that you'd be conveying, that those states are conveying, by spreading this message?

Or just you missed the point

I was including myself when I said everyone: Even if I'm wrong with everyone else, then the only thing that implies is that we are all wrong together. Please try not to avoid the discussion we're having.

It's not "everyone" else.

4 states have already made the switch. The rest need to follow suit

I think you misunderstand, that was a very general statement I made that could be applied to literally any proposition you could conceive of.

To clarify, consider a person who thinks that:
7*2 = -3246843
This is wrong and can be proven so. Now if instead of one person who wrongly believed in that, you had a thousand, a million, the entire world, or any arbitrary amount of people who believe in that, then it would still be false. A statement's truth does not depend in any way shape or from upon how many people believe in it.

The reason why I'm explaining this is because you seem to think that "multiple states have already replaced Columbus day" somehow implies "replacing Columbus day is a good thing" which is just as ludicrous as the equation above.
——-
Now please just answer the question that you keep avoiding, Do you honestly not understand the kind of message that you'd be conveying, that those states are conveying, by spreading this message? Do you not see how you are simply trying to guilt trip people?

Your logic cuts both ways. As I see it, everyone has been wrong, and a few right are changing things.

Now, this isn't about making anyone feel guilty. It's about ending a holiday named for a man who was as bad as any monster you can name.

And what I am trying to say is that regardless of what you believe you're doing, regardless of what wrongs you're trying to right, the only thin you'll achieve by making this replacement is creating a white guilt day.

And while I'm at it, could you show me exactly what his crimes are? we don't get taught that kind of thing outside of America.

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 11:32:34 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 13, 2015, 10:13:08 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 01:12:51 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 13, 2015, 12:55:16 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 12:09:29 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 13, 2015, 12:01:56 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 12, 2015, 11:53:14 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 12, 2015, 11:29:08 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 12, 2015, 11:03:19 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 12, 2015, 11:25:08 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 12, 2015, 01:00:11 AM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 08, 2015, 10:43:39 AM

Personally, I'm for this. Europeans didn't discover the Americas. People were already here.

Discuss

I figure the purpose of such a holiday as Columbus Day would be to celebrate the achievements of your ancestors, not to twist them into a means of white guilting everyone.

It's not about making you feel guilty. It's about stopping the whitewash of history that paints a monster as a great man. Columbus was as bad as Hitler or Stalin. Read up on what he did. He ordered the rape, murder and enslavement of an entire people. He committed genocide and got a national holiday out of it.

You go ahead and repeat that to every America you meet, every little kid and young impressionable person you meet, and you tell me how they respond to it. There's nothing wrong with coming to terms of your people's history, in fact I'd consider it the duty of every citizen to know their country's past, my country New Zealand has a similar story; But what your asking for is nothing short of self flagellation, and that is not going to achieve anything beneficial to anybody.

Several states already feel as I do

Even if everybody in the entire world missed the point, then the only thing that implies, is that everybody has missed the point. Do you honestly not understand the kind of message that you'd be conveying, that those states are conveying, by spreading this message?

Or just you missed the point

I was including myself when I said everyone: Even if I'm wrong with everyone else, then the only thing that implies is that we are all wrong together. Please try not to avoid the discussion we're having.

It's not "everyone" else.

4 states have already made the switch. The rest need to follow suit

I think you misunderstand, that was a very general statement I made that could be applied to literally any proposition you could conceive of.

To clarify, consider a person who thinks that:
7*2 = -3246843
This is wrong and can be proven so. Now if instead of one person who wrongly believed in that, you had a thousand, a million, the entire world, or any arbitrary amount of people who believe in that, then it would still be false. A statement's truth does not depend in any way shape or from upon how many people believe in it.

The reason why I'm explaining this is because you seem to think that "multiple states have already replaced Columbus day" somehow implies "replacing Columbus day is a good thing" which is just as ludicrous as the equation above.
——-
Now please just answer the question that you keep avoiding, Do you honestly not understand the kind of message that you'd be conveying, that those states are conveying, by spreading this message? Do you not see how you are simply trying to guilt trip people?

Your logic cuts both ways. As I see it, everyone has been wrong, and a few right are changing things.

Now, this isn't about making anyone feel guilty. It's about ending a holiday named for a man who was as bad as any monster you can name.

And what I am trying to say is that regardless of what you believe you're doing, regardless of what wrongs you're trying to right, the only thin you'll achieve by making this replacement is creating a white guilt day.

And while I'm at it, could you show me exactly what his crimes are? we don't get taught that kind of thing outside of America.

Look earlier in the thread. Someone already posted it.

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 08, 2015, 02:41:56 PM

Quote from: Luciana on October 08, 2015, 02:38:18 PM

I never said we should apologize, in fact I specifically said that in one post. I simply said we should remember it as it happened. Learn to understand the points I am making please.

Colombus himself didn't even kill anyone.

Maybe not directly, but he was responsible for a horrifying trail of blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#Eradication_of_the_natives_of_Hispaniola

Quote

More recent views of Columbus have tended to be much more critical.[104][105][106] The combined effects of Columbus' forced labor regime, war, and slaughter resulted in the near-total eradication of 98% of the native Taino of Hispaniola.[107] De las Casas records that when he first came to Hispaniola in 1508, "there were 60,000 people living on this island, including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery, and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this? I myself writing it as a knowledgeable eyewitness can hardly believe it...."[107]

The native Taino people of the island were systematically enslaved via the encomienda system implemented by Columbus,[108] which resembled a feudal system in Medieval Europe.[109]

Disease played a significant role in the destruction of the natives; however there is no record of any massive smallpox epidemic in the Antilles until 25 years after the arrival of Columbus; rather the natives' numbers declined due to extreme overwork, other diseases, and a loss of will to live after the destruction of their culture by the invaders. When the first pandemic finally struck in 1519 it wiped out much of the remaining native population.[110][111] According to the historian Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo y Valdes by 1548, 56 years after Columbus landed, fewer than five hundred Taino were left on the island.[112]

Columbus' treatment of the Hispaniola natives was even worse; his soldiers raped, killed, and enslaved with impunity at every landing. When Columbus fell ill in 1495, soldiers were reported to have gone on a rampage, slaughtering 50,000 natives. Upon his recovery, Columbus organized his troops' efforts, forming a squadron of several hundred heavily armed men and more than twenty attack dogs. The men tore across the land, killing thousands of sick and unarmed natives. Soldiers would use their captives for sword practice, attempting to decapitate them or cut them in half with a single blow.[113]

The historian Howard Zinn writes that Columbus spearheaded a massive slave trade; in 1495 his men captured in a single raid 1500 Arawak men, women, and children. When he shipped five hundred of the slaves to Spain, 40% died en route.[46] Historian James W. Loewen asserts that "Columbus not only sent the first slaves across the Atlantic, he probably sent more slaves – about five thousand – than any other individual... other nations rushed to emulate Columbus."[114]

When slaves held in captivity began to die at high rates, Columbus switched to a different system of forced labor: he ordered all natives over the age of thirteen to collect a specified amount (one hawk's bell full) of gold powder every three months. Natives who brought the amount were given a copper token to hang around their necks, and those found without tokens had their hands amputated and were left to bleed to death.[46][115]

The Arawaks attempted to fight back against Columbus's men but lacked their armor, guns, swords, and horses. When taken prisoner, they were hanged or burned to death. Desperation led to mass suicides and infanticide among the natives. In just two years under Columbus' governorship more than half of the 250,000 Arawaks in Haiti were dead.[46] The main cause for the depopulation was disease followed by other causes such as warfare and harsh enslavement. [116] [117] [118]

Samuel Eliot Morison, a Harvard historian and author of a multivolume biography on Columbus writes, "The cruel policy initiated by Columbus and pursued by his successors resulted in complete genocide."[119] Loewen laments that while "Haiti under the Spanish is one of the primary instances of genocide in all human history", only one major history text he reviewed mentions Columbus' role in it.[114]

There is evidence that the men of the first voyage also brought syphilis from the New World to Europe.[120] Many of the crew members who served on this voyage later joined the army of King Charles VIII in his invasion of Italy in 1495. After the victory, Charles' largely mercenary army returned to their respective homes, thereby spreading "the Great Pox" across Europe and triggering the deaths of more than five million people.[121]