Explosion in Manchester at a concert

Cindy · May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM

Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 08:59:37 AM

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 05:14:16 AM
Of course you don't, because you don't know the first thing about Islam and assume the Quran just says "kill whities and rape women" for hundreds of pages and then ends.
There are quite a substantial amount of passages about violence and conquering, though.

The sparse peaceful verses that do exist are only superseded by the violent ones, and that's only because the peaceful passages are referring to practising Muslims.

Yeah, the Q'uran might not be the serial killing cookbook Trumpanzees make it out to be, but it's not inaccurate to say it's a heavily violent book.

Well yeah, but so is every other Judaic religion's book

Religion as a whole and especially Abrahamic religions are hot garbage and need to go, but the way idiots assume that every Muslim is a terrorist because "muh violent book" is retarded as fuck. You can find shit equally as bad if not worse in the Torah and New Testament as you can in the Quran.

Cindy · May 26, 2017, 09:16:41 AM

Quote from: Karjala takaisin on May 26, 2017, 09:12:10 AM

Islam ban would never have to be enforced if politicians were smart and patriotic. Nazism was eradicated, the same could be done to Islam.

>says nazism was eradicated
>sucks the metaphorical dick of a guy worshipped by neo-nazis

lmao

Genghis Khan · May 26, 2017, 09:23:46 AM

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM

Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 05:14:16 AM
Of course you don't, because you don't know the first thing about Islam and assume the Quran just says "kill whities and rape women" for hundreds of pages and then ends.
There are quite a substantial amount of passages about violence and conquering, though.

The sparse peaceful verses that do exist are only superseded by the violent ones, and that's only because the peaceful passages are referring to practising Muslims.

Yeah, the Q'uran might not be the serial killing cookbook Trumpanzees make it out to be, but it's not inaccurate to say it's a heavily violent book.
Well yeah, but so is every other Judaic religion's book

Religion as a whole and especially Abrahamic religions are hot garbage and need to go, but the way idiots assume that every Muslim is a terrorist because "muh violent book" is retarded as fuck. You can find shit equally as bad if not worse in the Torah and New Testament as you can in the Quran.

How many christians or jews do you see go blow themselves up?

Mordo · May 26, 2017, 09:27:10 AM

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM

You can find shit equally as bad if not worse in the Torah and New Testament as you can in the Quran.

Well yeah, but they're not as prevalent.

It's all very good saying religion is shit and that they're all equally violent faiths (which is incorrect), but the fact of the matter is Islam is the slowest kid in the class when it comes to reconciliation of faith with the values of western society.

ISIS and various other Islamic terrorist organisations take the most extremist interpretations of the text that the majority of Muslims do not subscribe to, yes, but that doesn't mean they're not legitimate interpretations.

The "what about X religion as well!" is such a cop out argument. Yeah, Christianity and Judaism contain a slew of disgusting passages, but Christian and Jewish terrorism is not the primary concern right now, is it?

Cindy · May 26, 2017, 09:36:38 AM

Quote from: Karjala takaisin on May 26, 2017, 09:23:46 AM

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM
Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 05:14:16 AM
Of course you don't, because you don't know the first thing about Islam and assume the Quran just says "kill whities and rape women" for hundreds of pages and then ends.
There are quite a substantial amount of passages about violence and conquering, though.

The sparse peaceful verses that do exist are only superseded by the violent ones, and that's only because the peaceful passages are referring to practising Muslims.

Yeah, the Q'uran might not be the serial killing cookbook Trumpanzees make it out to be, but it's not inaccurate to say it's a heavily violent book.
Well yeah, but so is every other Judaic religion's book

Religion as a whole and especially Abrahamic religions are hot garbage and need to go, but the way idiots assume that every Muslim is a terrorist because "muh violent book" is retarded as fuck. You can find shit equally as bad if not worse in the Torah and New Testament as you can in the Quran.
How many christians or jews do you see go blow themselves up?

Blow themselves up? Not many.

Commit violent crime? Thousands.

Cindy · May 26, 2017, 09:38:52 AM

Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 09:27:10 AM

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM
You can find shit equally as bad if not worse in the Torah and New Testament as you can in the Quran.
Well yeah, but they're not as prevalent.

It's all very good saying religion is shit and that they're all equally violent faiths (which is incorrect), but the fact of the matter is Islam is the slowest kid in the class when it comes to reconciliation of faith with the values of western society.

ISIS and various other Islamic terrorist organisations take the most extremist interpretations of the text that the majority of Muslims do not subscribe to, yes, but that doesn't mean they're not legitimate interpretations.

The "what about X religion as well!" is such a cop out argument. Yeah, Christianity and Judaism contain a slew of disgusting passages, but Christian and Jewish terrorism is not the primary concern right now, is it?

Yes but Christianity and Judaism also aren't the majority religion of pretty much the most unstable areas of the entire world.

Religion is a factor, but it's not the only factor.

Muslims make up about a forth of the entire world's population. If Islam was as radicalizing and horrific as people like to say that it is, we'd know.

challengerX · May 26, 2017, 09:57:33 AM

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challengerX · May 26, 2017, 10:01:40 AM

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gats · May 26, 2017, 10:19:33 AM

Quote from: challengerX on May 26, 2017, 10:01:40 AM

And why do you think these regions are destabilized? You idiots act like there's some fringe terrorist groups and everybody else is normal when they're a large amount of Muslims too big to call a minority are for all sorts of barbaric things.

Iraq and Syria (for the large part) didn't destabilise themselves dude you know this.

Cindy · May 26, 2017, 10:22:40 AM

Quote from: challengerX on May 26, 2017, 10:01:40 AM

We do know about it. Religious minorities are highly persecuted in Muslim countries.

Yeah, including other muzzies, who have been the primary targets of Islamic terrorism. Primarily due to proximity, but still. It's not like terrorist groups are only massacring Christians and Jews and Zoroastrians and shit.

Quote

The fact that so many Muslim terrorist organizations exist is us knowing about it.

And the fact that the region was incredibly destabilized due to the invasions of numerous foreign powers has nothing to do with it, I suppose?

Not to mention the numerous Christian terrorist groups such as the NLFT and LRA in similarly destabilized regions across Africa and South Asia.

Quote

The fact that women are discouraged or sometimes even outright banned from participating in society is us knowing about it.

Again, it's not as though this is exclusive to Muslim countries. Ethiopia doesn't exactly have the best track record for their treatment of women, for example, even though it's been a hot topic there recently.

Quote

And why do you think these regions are destabilized?

Primarily due to centuries of invasion and warfare by competing foreign powers such as the US and USSR. Same reason so much of Africa is fucked up. Or are we working off of the "imperialism and colonialism were actually good things and the fact that the Belgians exterminated half of the Congo while using them for slave labor is a positive and/or never happened" sort of logic, here?

Quote

You idiots act like there's some fringe terrorist groups and everybody else is normal when they're a large amount of Muslims too big to call a minority are for all sorts of barbaric things.

No, us idiots act like taking a populace from a destabilized region constantly barraged with warfare, coups, invasions, tribal disputes, etc and blaming all of these factors on one thing is one of the most constantly annoying repeated positions I've ever heard.

Does Islam help in radicalization? Yes, of course it does. Is Islam the sole reason for the destabilization of the middle east to the point that removing it would suddenly cause peace and harmony? No, of course not, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And before you ignore the rest of the post to claim that I'm an idiot for saying something you didn't, yes, that is hyperbole.

It's so strange to see people acting like "Islam isn't the root cause of terrorism and the majority of Muslims are probably relatively fine people" means the same thing as "Islam literally has no factor in this and ISIS is just comprised of poor abused youth and it's all whitey's fault". You can go on about how the Quran is a bit more violent than the other Abrahamic books (which honestly I'm very unsure of but it's not like I have a way to prove or deny that claim), but for the most part, your average Muslim living in a shack in Afghanistan is gonna be no different than your average Christian living in a shack in Alabama in a vacuum. I've met Muslims who were ten times nicer than half of the christians and atheists I've met.

In short, while Islam is more likely to coincide with terrorism in the modern day, it doesn't necessitate it, which is the largest difference. And despite the fact that many Muslims in third-world countries might hold rather radical views, which they by and large do, a very small minority are truly "radical" to the point of joining terrorist cells.

Cindy · May 26, 2017, 10:26:29 AM

Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 09:27:10 AM

The "what about X religion as well!" is such a cop out argument. Yeah, Christianity and Judaism contain a slew of disgusting passages, but Christian and Jewish terrorism is not the primary concern right now, is it?

But if the topic is just "gross shit written in holy books", it's perfectly fair to bring up the others in juxtaposition.

My point in all this is that Islam is no inherently better or worse than many of other religions and screaming about how it's the death of modern society shows a massive lack of understand about why terror acts are being committed. It has much more to do with surrounding factors such as culture, government, access to education and technology, and the stability of the region than it has to do with any one specific religion.

There's a tendency that people have that's called "end of history" or something like that, which is where people imagine all the things that happened in the past as being ancient history while things happening in the present are the finality - the end state of the world. Every religion has done pretty terrible things in the name of their god(s) at one point or another in history, more or less, and I'd hesitate to say that it was ever done solely because of religion with no outlying factors.

Ian · May 26, 2017, 10:41:13 AM

Centuries is a very bold word to use when the entirety of Africa suffers the same problems as the small pockets of its white populated areas despite not being touched by colonists since the end of the Imperial rule. More could be said for the Middle East, not all the countries have been molested by the selfish interests of outside nations yet they still treat women as less than men and stab each other in the back in a less than civilized manner. This of course also brings up the fact that while Africa is a festering shit hole, it at least doesn't produce huge amounts of terrorism despite having """scientists""" that believe you can harness the power of lightning from a moon god to strike another individual down.

At some point a nation needs to be held responsible for its own ugly history. It's not to say the US/USSR and the British Empire are absolved of their crimes, we wouldn't be flogging ourselves over it in primary school history class if that was the case, but it's dishonest to say the fault is entirely on the West.

Quote

Primarily due to centuries of invasion and warfare by competing foreign powers such as the US and USSR. Same reason so much of Africa is fucked up. Or are we working off of the "imperialism and colonialism were actually good things and the fact that the Belgians exterminated half of the Congo while using them for slave labor is a positive and/or never happened" sort of logic, here?

challengerX · May 26, 2017, 10:43:29 AM

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DAS B00T x2 · May 26, 2017, 11:02:10 AM

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM

Religion as a whole and especially Abrahamic religions are hot garbage and need to go

I keep telling you, dear, there's only one real way to do that.

Cindy · May 26, 2017, 11:17:26 AM

Quote from: Ian on May 26, 2017, 10:41:13 AM

At some point a nation needs to be held responsible for its own ugly history.

I mean, that's much easier to say from the perspective of living in countries that have always been at least relatively stable in recent history (meaning the last few centuries)

Of course those places have their own issues, but it's less so that all of their issues were cause by colonialism/imperialism and more so that they were amplified by them. Lots of Africa, South Asia, and the Middle East is still dealing with the fact that a lot of the internal bits of the countries hate the shit out of each other because some bastards with big guns and boats drew lines on a map and went "yup, that's a country, now."

Ian · May 26, 2017, 11:21:53 AM

More like the countries are falling apart because local warlords who don't give a shit about the past or current politics just want power and money and then start civil wars to undermine the current authority. In which case, your only options are either to get involved because you feel letting innocent people get caught up in something like that is unethical and deal with consequences of outside involvement, or do nothing and let the country eat itself alive while begging for outside help for the innocents. Either way you're fucked.

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 11:17:26 AM

Lots of Africa, South Asia, and the Middle East is still dealing with the fact that a lot of the internal bits of the countries hate the shit out of each other because some bastards with big guns and boats drew lines on a map and went "yup, that's a country, now."

Genghis Khan · May 26, 2017, 11:23:29 AM

Germans are guilt because of WWII. Sweden has no reason to be self destructive.

Luciana · May 26, 2017, 12:25:59 PM

Quote from: Ian on May 26, 2017, 11:21:53 AM

More like the countries are falling apart because local warlords who don't give a shit about the past or current politics just want power and money and then start civil wars to undermine the current authority. In which case, your only options are either to get involved because you feel letting innocent people get caught up in something like that is unethical and deal with consequences of outside involvement, or do nothing and let the country eat itself alive while begging for outside help for the innocents. Either way you're fucked.

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 11:17:26 AM
Lots of Africa, South Asia, and the Middle East is still dealing with the fact that a lot of the internal bits of the countries hate the shit out of each other because some bastards with big guns and boats drew lines on a map and went "yup, that's a country, now."

I mean honestly in Cindo's defense, the lack of foresight when drawing borders on maps has historically been a bad idea where a group of people have their own regions, only to get boxed in with others, or suddenly excluded from their people. It's a reason Germany went on its little land grabbing spree a few years before World War 2 because it split off people who were historically part of Germany.

It's a reason you see Russia dealing with it now when the USSR suddenly dissolved and people who were more culturally aligned with Russia, were suddenly out. Of course that one is a bit different, but the point is, when drawing borders, cultures and languages play a massive role it. The fact there are warlords and unstable places is in large part due to people who despise each other are suddenly bunched in one nation and told "okay work things out with each other now". It's why Africa is the nation with the straightest border lines in the world.

It's a reason you're seeing countries try to slowly emerge from Africa because people are trying to actually form nations that actually represent that groups people. Post colonialism. Messy business.

Genghis Khan · May 26, 2017, 12:38:09 PM

It does look funny that there are borders that look like they were drawn with a ruler. There should be Kurdistan.

Luciana · May 26, 2017, 12:40:37 PM

Quote from: Karjala takaisin on May 26, 2017, 12:38:09 PM

It does look funny that there are borders that look like they were drawn with a ruler. There should be Kurdistan.

Yeah man, at the table they literally just went "okay you get this, aaaaaand" *line drawn here* "I get this!"

They didn't think it through very well at all. Which is odd because after WW1 they handled the borders of Europe with much more care. But that's because they actually gave a fuck.

Mordo · May 26, 2017, 01:10:29 PM

Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:38:52 AM

Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 09:27:10 AM
Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM
You can find shit equally as bad if not worse in the Torah and New Testament as you can in the Quran.
Well yeah, but they're not as prevalent.

It's all very good saying religion is shit and that they're all equally violent faiths (which is incorrect), but the fact of the matter is Islam is the slowest kid in the class when it comes to reconciliation of faith with the values of western society.

ISIS and various other Islamic terrorist organisations take the most extremist interpretations of the text that the majority of Muslims do not subscribe to, yes, but that doesn't mean they're not legitimate interpretations.

The "what about X religion as well!" is such a cop out argument. Yeah, Christianity and Judaism contain a slew of disgusting passages, but Christian and Jewish terrorism is not the primary concern right now, is it?
Yes but Christianity and Judaism also aren't the majority religion of pretty much the most unstable areas of the entire world.

Religion is a factor, but it's not the only factor.

Muslims make up about a forth of the entire world's population. If Islam was as radicalizing and horrific as people like to say that it is, we'd know.

See, if you're going to posit the "destabilisation" argument you also need to explain why ISIS and other extremist groups existed before 9/11 and before the invasion of Iraq.

You also need to explain why Islamic immigration produces more problems in developed societies than Christian and Jewish immigration does. Malmö and London, cities which you and I both know aren't exactly poverty stricken shit holes, have seen a rapid increase in homophobic opinions and anti-Semitic behaviour. Have the Swedes and the English suddenly become fervent bigots over the space of a couple years? Or is it more likely that insular Muslim communities have grown larger and more ghettoised?

Nobody is contesting the fact that destabilisation has produced more harm than good in the Middle East, but that's not what we're trying to discuss here, so I'm not entirely sure why you keep bringing it up. We're talking about the social cohesiveness of Muslim populations and the lack thereof, largely due to the values they espouse that originate from the texts of the religion.

challengerX · May 26, 2017, 03:30:41 PM

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big dog · May 26, 2017, 03:35:17 PM

Quote from: challengerX on May 26, 2017, 03:30:41 PM

Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 01:10:29 PM
Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:38:52 AM
Quote from: The Hidden Gabber on May 26, 2017, 09:27:10 AM
Quote from: Cindy on May 26, 2017, 09:15:57 AM
You can find shit equally as bad if not worse in the Torah and New Testament as you can in the Quran.
Well yeah, but they're not as prevalent.

It's all very good saying religion is shit and that they're all equally violent faiths (which is incorrect), but the fact of the matter is Islam is the slowest kid in the class when it comes to reconciliation of faith with the values of western society.

ISIS and various other Islamic terrorist organisations take the most extremist interpretations of the text that the majority of Muslims do not subscribe to, yes, but that doesn't mean they're not legitimate interpretations.

The "what about X religion as well!" is such a cop out argument. Yeah, Christianity and Judaism contain a slew of disgusting passages, but Christian and Jewish terrorism is not the primary concern right now, is it?
Yes but Christianity and Judaism also aren't the majority religion of pretty much the most unstable areas of the entire world.

Religion is a factor, but it's not the only factor.

Muslims make up about a forth of the entire world's population. If Islam was as radicalizing and horrific as people like to say that it is, we'd know.
See, if you're going to posit the "destabilisation" argument you also need to explain why ISIS and other extremist groups existed before 9/11 and before the invasion of Iraq.

You also need to explain why Islamic immigration produces more problems in developed societies than Christian and Jewish immigration does. Malmö and London, cities which you and I both know aren't exactly poverty stricken shit holes, have seen a rapid increase in homophobic opinions and anti-Semitic behaviour. Have the Swedes and the English suddenly become fervent bigots over the space of a couple years? Or is it more likely that insular Muslim communities have grown larger and more ghettoised?

Nobody is contesting the fact that destabilisation has produced more harm than good in the Middle East, but that's not what we're trying to discuss here, so I'm not entirely sure why you keep bringing it up. We're talking about the social cohesiveness of Muslim populations and the lack thereof, largely due to the values they espouse that originate from the texts of the religion.
Well the CIA and MI5 were conducting operations in the ME as early as the 1940's if not earlier. It's not really an excuse for people to form terrorist groups though.

I heard one of the CIA's operations didn't fly so good.

challengerX · May 26, 2017, 03:50:02 PM

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challengerX · May 26, 2017, 03:51:20 PM

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maverick · May 26, 2017, 05:28:05 PM

Quote from: Fedorekd on May 26, 2017, 03:35:17 PM

I heard one of the CIA's operations didn't fly so good.

Or perhaps he's wondering why someone would destabilize a country, before bombing it out of a plane.

challengerX · May 26, 2017, 05:59:45 PM

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NotKiyo · May 26, 2017, 06:16:13 PM

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challengerX · May 26, 2017, 06:33:25 PM

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NotKiyo · May 26, 2017, 07:48:18 PM

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