Explain to me why college should be """""""free""""""" please

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 12:45:08 AM

Because everyone is entitled to an education. It's a fundamental birthright of all people.

Just like everyone is entitled to a comfortable home, water, electricity, an Internet connection, and a decent life.

Everything that is required for you to live on this planet should be free, and anyone who disagrees should probably die.

None of us asked to be here, so we are owed everything on a silver platter. Total utopic perfection, or nothing.

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 12:49:31 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:35:25 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:34:51 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:22:45 AM
Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:21:03 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on February 23, 2016, 11:31:20 PM
Is there a purpose in using """"""""""free"""""""""" repeatedly?
Because it isn't and cannot be truly free. The burden of cost is simply moved directly onto the shoulders of those who do not directly benefit from it.

It's as free as a car bought with stolen money. Really, as free as a stolen car.
Oh my bad, I didn't realize you were one of those "taxes are theft" folks.
There's nothing wrong with that notion. It is totally accurate.

I just don't care about the morality of it anymore. It is arbitrary, spooked morality.
What the fuck is "spooked morality"? Is this a meme you're trying to force?

Yes.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 12:49:58 AM

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Mad Max · February 24, 2016, 12:50:46 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:49:58 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 12:45:08 AM
Because everyone is entitled to an education. It's a fundamental birthright of all people.

Just like everyone is entitled to a comfortable home, water, electricity, an Internet connection, and a decent life.

Everything that is required for you to live on this planet should be free, and anyone who disagrees should probably die.

None of us asked to be here, so we are owed everything on a silver platter. Total utopic perfection, or nothing.

I have no idea what this picture is about

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 12:50:59 AM

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Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 12:52:41 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:50:46 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:49:58 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 12:45:08 AM
Because everyone is entitled to an education. It's a fundamental birthright of all people.

Just like everyone is entitled to a comfortable home, water, electricity, an Internet connection, and a decent life.

Everything that is required for you to live on this planet should be free, and anyone who disagrees should probably die.

None of us asked to be here, so we are owed everything on a silver platter. Total utopic perfection, or nothing.

I have no idea what this picture is about

Mad Max · February 24, 2016, 12:53:47 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:50:59 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:35:25 AM
Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:34:51 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:22:45 AM
Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:21:03 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on February 23, 2016, 11:31:20 PM
Is there a purpose in using """"""""""free"""""""""" repeatedly?
Because it isn't and cannot be truly free. The burden of cost is simply moved directly onto the shoulders of those who do not directly benefit from it.

It's as free as a car bought with stolen money. Really, as free as a stolen car.
Oh my bad, I didn't realize you were one of those "taxes are theft" folks.
There's nothing wrong with that notion. It is totally accurate.

I just don't care about the morality of it anymore. It is arbitrary, spooked morality.
What the fuck is "spooked morality"? Is this a meme you're trying to force?
Morality based on arbitrary ideas that have no objective basis and simply make you feel good about yourself.

Which would be totally okay if you'd just admit that they're arbitrary and just make you feel good.

What does this have to do with being spooky?

All morality is subjective and arbitrary.

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 12:54:03 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:50:59 AM

Morality based on arbitrary ideas that have no objective basis and simply make you feel good about yourself.

Which would be totally okay if you'd just admit that they're arbitrary and just make you feel good.

You can't get much more objective than that post I just made.

Mad Max · February 24, 2016, 12:54:15 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 12:52:41 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:50:46 AM
Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 12:49:58 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 12:45:08 AM
Because everyone is entitled to an education. It's a fundamental birthright of all people.

Just like everyone is entitled to a comfortable home, water, electricity, an Internet connection, and a decent life.

Everything that is required for you to live on this planet should be free, and anyone who disagrees should probably die.

None of us asked to be here, so we are owed everything on a silver platter. Total utopic perfection, or nothing.

I have no idea what this picture is about

Unfortunately, that cleared up nothing.

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 12:54:24 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:53:47 AM

All morality is subjective and arbitrary.

No.

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:54:15 AM

Unfortunately, that cleared up nothing.

You're pretty thick, then.

Mad Max · February 24, 2016, 12:54:55 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 12:54:24 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:53:47 AM
All morality is subjective and arbitrary.
No.

Yes.

Objective morality doesn't exist.

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 12:55:54 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:54:55 AM

Objective morality doesn't exist.

If you're a child who hasn't given an ounce of thought on the subject, sure.

Mad Max · February 24, 2016, 12:57:12 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 12:55:54 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:54:55 AM
Objective morality doesn't exist.
If you're a child who hasn't given an ounce of thought on the subject, sure.

The fact that people's morals differ is exactly why objective morality doesn't exist. You and I do not share the same moral values.

If objective morality existed, we would.

But we don't.

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 12:58:46 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:57:12 AM

The fact that people's morals differ is exactly why objective morality doesn't exist.

I guess science doesn't exist, then, because professional opinions on science tend to differ depending on the scientist.

Mad Max · February 24, 2016, 01:02:09 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 12:58:46 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:57:12 AM
The fact that people's morals differ is exactly why objective morality doesn't exist.
I guess science doesn't exist, then, because professional opinions on science tend to differ depending on the scientist.

Science has nothing to do with morality. Morality is not measurable or observable.

If I conduct the same scientific experiment you did, and reach different results, one of us is wrong. The scientific method exists for a reason.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 01:02:29 AM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 01:03:43 AM

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Mad Max · February 24, 2016, 01:06:27 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 01:03:43 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 12:57:12 AM
The fact that people's morals differ is exactly why objective morality doesn't exist.
Morality exists because there is a God who dictates them.

lawl. Which god? Your god, right? The one, true God? Because why would you waste your time worshiping a god that wasn't the one true god - that's dumb.

Quote

If there is no god then morality is simply what you want it to be.

Yes, that is exactly what is going on.

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 01:07:10 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on February 24, 2016, 01:02:09 AM

Science has nothing to do with morality. Morality is not measurable or observable.

I can observe two people killing each other, and I can observe two people exchanging cupcakes with each other.

Based on my observations, I could conclude that the two people exchanging cupcakes are more moral.

Oh. Looks like I just measured and observed morality.

Quote

If I conduct the same scientific experiment you did, and reach different results, one of us is wrong.

The point is that you can form conclusions based on those results, and they may not necessarily match up.

Quantum theory is hotly debated in the scientific community.

Consequently, if you took the same scenario I just illustrated, and observed two people killing each other and two people exchanging cupcakes, and you come up with a different conclusion than me, one of us is wrong (you). Because killing is immoral, and a consent-based exchange of goods is moral. Objectively.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 01:10:34 AM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 01:11:33 AM

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Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 01:20:40 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 01:11:33 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 24, 2016, 01:07:10 AM
Because killing is immoral,
Why.

Because you're imposing your will on another sentient, and harming them in the process.

Unless you're not. If you're killing someone with their permission (e.g. euthanasia), then it's obviously perfectly okay.

There's other scenarios you can paint to easily justify killing, but generally speaking, 99.99% of the time, it's wrong to kill.

Quote

Why.

Because no one's getting hurt. Any scenario you can color where an individual is not harming others (in any way, physically, mentally, or otherwise), then it's moral. In other words, if it's not immoral, it can be no other thing than moral.

You talk about how if there is no god, morality is up to our interpretation.

What you fail to realize is that we are our own gods--tasked with the duty of alleviating all our suffering.
We are god, and that is our goal.

Killing people wantonly, instead of cooperating to achieve peace, is not conducive to this goal.

Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 01:30:13 AM

It should be stated that moral objectivity and collectivism are inextricably intertwined.

If you're not a collectivist, your entire conception of morality is fucked. No discussion on morality is going to go anywhere.

If you can't concede that you aren't the center of the universe, then of what philosophical use are you?

You wanna talk about spooks--individualism is one of the spookiest spooks out there.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 01:34:56 AM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 01:41:18 AM

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Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 01:44:52 AM

Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 24, 2016, 01:34:56 AM

Why is that bad.

Because pinch yourself and tell me how good it feels.
Because imagine putting a knife to your wrist and estimate how good that would feel.
Because negative sensation is just that--negative.

Removing someone from society entirely is simply not up to you to decide.

Quote

Why does their consent make it good.

It doesn't make it "good"--it makes it permissible.

It makes it permissible because we, as the gods of the universe, have deemed it so.

Doing things without people's permission causes discomfort, unrest, and imbalance in society. Maintaining comfort, peace, and balance in society is of utmost importance, because bad sensations are bad and good sensations are good, and consent-based decisions are far more likely to produce good sensations.

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Why is harming others bad.

See above.

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It isn't morality. It's self-interest. I'm literally saying do or say what you want, just recognize that it's just because you want it.

No.

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What on earth gave you that idea?

What on earth gave you your silly conception of god?

There is no god, so we take up the mantle instead. We make the rules of the universe. We are god.

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Killing people wantonly instead of cooperating is probably not conducive to most goals.

Exactly.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 01:56:04 AM

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challengerX · February 24, 2016, 01:58:00 AM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · February 24, 2016, 02:00:31 AM

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Verbatim · February 24, 2016, 02:00:37 AM

I think if you were to argue that there are no objective "goals" in a godless universe, I'd agree with you there.

But once we establish a goal, whatever it may be, the rules we come up with under that framework are going to be manufactured in such a way that would best lead us to that goal. It's conceivable that there is a "best possible" set of rules for each given goal. To speak of morality is to speak of rules.

For example, if we decide that the goal of the universe is to make ourselves go extinct without killing each other, the best possible set of rules we could have would involve "no having children" in them. And that would be, objectively, the best rule to have in place for this particular goal.

Currently, I believe the goal of humanity to be this: Maximize pleasure, and minimize suffering.
A collectivist goal, because 7 billion cancers is a much bigger deal than 1 personal cancer.

I believe there to be an objective set of rules that would allow us to fully realize this goal. What does it look like? I'm not 100% positive. Part of it, for me, involves the cessation of all human reproduction. Part of it involves destroying the meat & dairy industry, ending the global holocaust of millions of sentient beings that's been going on for centuries. Those are the two biggest ones for me, and there's a lot of smaller bits and nuance as well.

We can argue and debate on what the best set of rules is, but ultimately, there IS a set of rules that would work best to achieve that goal. It's not subjective--one of us is right, and the other is wrong. Or maybe both of us are wrong.

But there is a right answer.