Dzhokhar Tsarnaev got death penalty.

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Khilafah420
What the fuck? Now he's just gonna have a quick and painless execution rather than having to rot in a prison for 60 years. The hell is wrong with the jury?


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Punishment is a terrible way of looking at both ethics and jurisprudence.

Nonetheless, this was the correct decision.


 
 
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<.<
Aaaaand they made him a martyr, GG.


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Khilafah420
Punishment is a terrible way of looking at both ethics and jurisprudence.

Nonetheless, this was the correct decision.
I think that rehabilitation should be valued over punishment in all but the most extreme cases. This being one of them. The US justice system (like the vast majority of them) is just so shitty and emphasizes punishment so much more than rehabilitation, and then we pretend to act surprised when convicts end up in prison again shortly after they're released.


 
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quick and painless
Where have you been the last 4 or 5 executions?


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I think that rehabilitation should be valued over punishment
I totally agree, but it's worth noting that I) perhaps about half of all violent criminals aren't going to be rehabilitated anyway, and II) some crimes are so heinous that it isn't worth keeping the individual alive.


 
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Good.


 
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Aaaaand they made him a martyr, GG.
\_/


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Aaaaand they made him a martyr, GG.
Who cares? You can't not make martyrs for these people. They will find a martyr no matter what you do. I'm still waiting for the thousands of bin Ladens that were supposed to come after us when we killed the original. . .

And if we have to deal with more Tsarnaev's as a result of this verdict, we'll fucking kill them as well.


 
 
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<.<
Aaaaand they made him a martyr, GG.
Who cares? You can't not make martyrs for these people. They will find a martyr no matter what you do. I'm still waiting for the thousands of bin Ladens that were supposed to come after us when we killed the original. . .

And if we have to deal with more Tsarnaev's as a result of this verdict, we'll fucking kill them as well.
ISIS totally didn't see a surge in popularity shortly after Al Qaeda died off. One was pretty shitty the other is easily worse.

Do you not see the gap in logic of trying to kill the hydra just by cutting off it's head? If this chap spawns even 2 more bombers, then you kill them and they spawn two more each and you keep on going and going is that actually going to stop or even reduce the number of terrorist attacks? Or inflame the situation further?

Whereas if they slung the little shit into a supermax to rot away, that's not going to give him any publicity about his pathetic cause.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
ISIS totally didn't see a surge in popularity shortly after Al Qaeda died off.
Which also coincided with the Coalition pulling out of Iraq, a surge in Saudi support and their victory in capturing East Syrian oilfields.

Quote
Whereas if they slung the little shit into a supermax to rot away, that's not going to give him any publicity about his pathetic cause.
I highly doubt that; Islamists are still enamoured with the murder of Lee Rigby and anybody willing to perform domestic terrorist attacks or fly over to Syria doesn't need Tsarnaev's death to galvanise them. It's like saying video games cause violent behaviour; we know that hate crime and terrorism aren't linked to variables like education, economic well-being or mental illness. It's the result of toxic values, which need no help from bombings to develop.

I don't agree with everything the West is doing, Cameron and May's new Extremism Disruption Orders make me uneasy. But, make no mistake, we are at war.


 
 
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ISIS totally didn't see a surge in popularity shortly after Al Qaeda died off.
Which also coincided with the Coalition pulling out of Iraq, a surge in Saudi support and their victory in capturing East Syrian oilfields.

True, I'm not saying we shouldn't have killed Bin Laden but a combat kill isn't the same as an execution. Killing your enemy in war is fine, which is why it's all well and good to bomb the bejeesus out of them (Provided that isn't codeword for bombing villages full of civvies because one guy owns an AK)

Executing a prisoner though, is a harder thing to justify even if the shithead is guilty as sin. I get that derka derkas aren't really the POW respecting types, but that's not reason enough for us to do what they do even if it is dressed up nicely and done with clinical efficiency.

Quote
Whereas if they slung the little shit into a supermax to rot away, that's not going to give him any publicity about his pathetic cause.
I highly doubt that; Islamists are still enamoured with the murder of Lee Rigby and anybody willing to perform domestic terrorist attacks or fly over to Syria doesn't need Tsarnaev's death to galvanise them. It's like saying video games cause violent behaviour; we know that hate crime and terrorism aren't linked to variables like education, economic well-being or mental illness. It's the result of toxic values, which need no help from bombings to develop.

I don't agree with everything the West is doing, Cameron and May's new Extremism Disruption Orders make me uneasy. But, make no mistake, we are at war.
[/quote]

Of course, but refer to my previous points about conduct in war. Killing POWs isn't an acceptable practice for a first world nation, no matter how scummy or terrible their actions are. Yeah we aren't going to break out the BBQ and grill some long pork like ISIS did, but it's still sinking to their level.


 
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Of course, but refer to my previous points about conduct in war. Killing POWs isn't an acceptable practice for a first world nation, no matter how scummy or terrible their actions are. Yeah we aren't going to break out the BBQ and grill some long pork like ISIS did, but it's still sinking to their level.
arbitrary


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I don't care one way or another.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
but it's still sinking to their level.
Hardly. Motives matter.

Killing somebody as a display of intolerance towards toxic, fascist ideologies (prisoner or not) is always going to be more moral than killing somebody (prisoner or not) in pursuit of those very same toxic, fascist ideologies. Even if the net body count is the same at the end of the day. Some people have more moral worth than others.

I was opposed to the death penalty for a very long time, and still am in most instances, but the nature of war has changed. People like Tsarnaev aren't just criminals, they're enemy combatants willing to bomb civilians in pursuit of their Medieval world-view. I can't morally justify keeping him alive on the taxpayer's dime.


 
 
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<.<
but it's still sinking to their level.
Hardly. Motives matter.

Killing somebody as a display of intolerance towards toxic, fascist ideologies (prisoner or not) is always going to be more moral than killing somebody (prisoner or not) in pursuit of those very same toxic, fascist ideologies. Even if the net body count is the same at the end of the day. Some people have more moral worth than others.

I was opposed to the death penalty for a very long time, and still am in most instances, but the nature of war has changed. People like Tsarnaev aren't just criminals, they're enemy combatants willing to bomb civilians in pursuit of their Medieval world-view. I can't morally justify keeping him alive on the taxpayer's dime.

Ehh that's a bit of a relative judgement to make, not necessarily a wrong one but killing someone for having a shitty ideology or a wrong one is unpleasantly reminiscent of exactly what the people with said ideologies would like to do.

I suppose ultimately war criminals can be executed for their crimes, we hung the nazis at nuremberg for their crimes so perhaps it's not all that bad to do the same again here but it really doesn't strike me as something that will make an improvement in the world which begs the question as to what the purpose of doing it is.

And then in a wider sense it's more the differing approaches to combating the problem, I'd rather see things that discredit and undermine the enemy ideology deployed rather than physical attacks. Stuff kind of like this -> Jordinian muftis countering ISIS interpretations of the quran That could just be the adage of if all your tools are hammers then all the problems look like nails (Psychology is the hammer here <.<)


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Disgusting.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
but killing someone for having a shitty ideology or a wrong one is unpleasantly reminiscent of exactly what the people with said ideologies would like to do.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree. You're a scumbag if you're murdering Islamic militants in the streets, I'm just saying we shouldn't forget we have the intellectual capacity to be proportionate between different levels of immorality. It's all well and good comparing actions to ideal counterfactuals, but actual moral considerations often don't give us the luxury of such counterfactuals.

I don't think the killing of Tsarnaev is moral in any absolute sense, it's just the least immoral option.


 
 
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<.<
but killing someone for having a shitty ideology or a wrong one is unpleasantly reminiscent of exactly what the people with said ideologies would like to do.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree. You're a scumbag if you're murdering Islamic militants in the streets, I'm just saying we shouldn't forget we have the intellectual capacity to be proportionate between different levels of immorality. It's all well and good comparing actions to ideal counterfactuals, but actual moral considerations often don't give us the luxury of such counterfactuals.

I don't think the killing of Tsarnaev is moral in any absolute sense, it's just the least immoral option.
Hmm true, I still think that throwing him into a cell for the rest of his natural life is slightly less immoral than executing him though. In some ways anyway, the moral highground is less bloodied but on the other hand he has to suffer a miserable existence at the taxpayer's expense which kind of muddies the waters.


 
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Khilafah420
I think that rehabilitation should be valued over punishment
I totally agree, but it's worth noting that I) perhaps about half of all violent criminals aren't going to be rehabilitated anyway, and II) some crimes are so heinous that it isn't worth keeping the individual alive.
I guess it's just a matter over whether you think he should live a shitty and torturous life or just be killed.


 
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Khilafah420
And then in a wider sense it's more the differing approaches to combating the problem, I'd rather see things that discredit and undermine the enemy ideology deployed rather than physical attacks. Stuff kind of like this -> Jordinian muftis countering ISIS interpretations of the quran That could just be the adage of if all your tools are hammers then all the problems look like nails (Psychology is the hammer here <.<)

Actually, IS interpretations of the Qu'ran are generally accurate and valid. The problem is that the Qu'ran and the Hadiths are so broad and vague, that you can use them to justify anything. For example: the Qu'ran typically bans burning people alive. So what IS used to get around that to burn the Jordanian pilot is that a Hadith states that you may punish an enemy using the same thing that he did. And those bombings that the pilot did often incinerated people alive, so there's IS's justification for burning him alive which is Qu'ran-friendly.

Many of these Middle Eastern states accusing IS of not being Islamic are just lying, since IS follows the Qu'ran extremely literally. If anything, states like Saudi Arabia and Jordan are not Islamic, since they've diverged from the Qu'ran a lot more than IS.

tl;dr: IS is very Islamic, and anyone who claims that they're un-Islamic are bullshitting themselves.

inb4i'maccusedofbeingaterrorist
Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 06:37:33 PM by Not Comms Officer


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I'm presuming he can appeal like any other charged criminal can?

I'm expecting this to be really drawn out if that's the case, or rushed through quickly because of his infamy (unlike the many unknowns on death row atm).


 
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The Rage....
Those cunts.


 
 
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<.<
And then in a wider sense it's more the differing approaches to combating the problem, I'd rather see things that discredit and undermine the enemy ideology deployed rather than physical attacks. Stuff kind of like this -> Jordinian muftis countering ISIS interpretations of the quran That could just be the adage of if all your tools are hammers then all the problems look like nails (Psychology is the hammer here <.<)

Actually, IS interpretations of the Qu'ran are generally accurate and valid. The problem is that the Qu'ran and the Hadiths are so broad and vague, that you can use them to justify anything. For example: the Qu'ran typically bans burning people alive. So what IS used to get around that to burn the Jordanian pilot is that a Hadith states that you may punish an enemy using the same thing that he did. And those bombings that the pilot did often incinerated people alive, so there's IS's justification for burning him alive which is Qu'ran-friendly.

Many of these Middle Eastern states accusing IS of not being Islamic are just lying, since IS follows the Qu'ran extremely literally. If anything, states like Saudi Arabia and Jordan are not Islamic, since they've diverged from the Qu'ran a lot more than IS.

tl;dr: IS is very Islamic, and anyone who claims that they're un-Islamic are bullshitting themselves.

inb4i'maccusedofbeingaterrorist

Ehh yeah, good point.

I suppose it's the same shit with how you can argue that throwing rocks at gay people is 'Christian' because it's in the bible, sure it might be in your holy book but it makes you a savage to be doing it. Alternatively you can look at 'turn the other cheek' and 'love thy neighbour' and still be a christian with the added benefit of not being a lunatic.


 
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The Rage....
And really, why can't we fucking murder his family for thinking their failure of a son is innocent?


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And really, why can't we fucking murder his family for thinking their failure of a son is innocent?
Because that isn't justice.


 
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The Rage....
And really, why can't we fucking murder his family for thinking their failure of a son is innocent?
Because that isn't justice.
Yes it is. More intelligence in the gene pool.