Do you consider transgenderism a mental illness?

 
challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Mad Max | Mythic Invincible!
 
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Be cool and please withhold insults, people. Let's be civil.
Cheat, stop using such hostile language.
Still butthurt? LOL

Yes, you were being hostile. Get over and stop spamming my thread with your off topic posts.
Please stop using such hostile language. It hurts my tiny, fragile feelings.
Then leave the thread.

You know you're a fucking loser when Verbatim is more civil than you, bro.
Challenger, now you're being hostile.


 
Verbatim
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No, but men are inherently more competitive than women on the average.
There you go, "on the average". To me, words like "inherent" and "on the average" are incompatible. It's either inherent, or it isn't. So, either you mean that all men are inherently more competitive than women, or you don't--but you can't muddy that water.

Otherwise, it's no longer an inherent, see?
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You need to provide an example. I've provided one, at least.
I don't know exactly what you want. Do you want evidence to suggest that you can influence gender? That should be easy enough.
Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 04:21:14 PM by Verbatim


 
challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Groot | Ascended Posting Frenzy
 
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One of Cheat's alts.
No, but men are inherently more competitive than women on the average.
There you go, "on the average". To me, words like "inherent" and "on the average" are incompatible. It's either inherent, or it isn't. So, either you mean that all men are inherently more competitive than women, or you don't--but you can't muddy that water.

Otherwise, it's no longer an inherent, see?
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You need to provide an example. I've provided one, at least.
I don't know exactly what you want. Do you want evidence to suggest that you can influence gender? That should be easy enough.
If you could influence gender, then that is what would be done with trans people instead of changing their bodies. But it doesn't really work, which is why it doesn't happen.

Sorry for making you all upsettable.


Mad Max | Mythic Invincible!
 
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Be cool and please withhold insults, people. Let's be civil.
Cheat, stop using such hostile language.
Still butthurt? LOL

Yes, you were being hostile. Get over and stop spamming my thread with your off topic posts.
Please stop using such hostile language. It hurts my tiny, fragile feelings.
Then leave the thread.

You know you're a fucking loser when Verbatim is more civil than you, bro.
Challenger, now you're being hostile.
I guess you'd think so.
Well considering disagreeing with you over factual points is apparently hostile, I have no idea what constitutes as hostile.


 
challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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A flower which blooms on the battlefield
lol challenger is actually challengina


Mad Max | Mythic Invincible!
 
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lol challenger is actually challengina
Careful Lemon...


 
Verbatim
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If you could influence gender, then that is what would be done with trans people instead of changing their bodies. But it doesn't really work, which is why it doesn't happen.

Sorry for making you all upsettable.
i mean influence in the sense that that's what i believe causes people to become dysphoric in the first place
i don't believe it's genetic

i could be wrong, but that's just what i always believed

you didn't make me upsettable, i just AM upsettable, so i should be sorry

it just really feels like i'm repeating myself constantly in this thread, which is frustrating when i have to do it for the people who are on my side of the issue


 
Naru
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The Rage....
Yes.


 
challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Girl of Mystery | Mythic Unfrigginbelievable!
 
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lol challenger is actually challengina
Seeing how I don't have a stick up my ass about everything, no.
how big are your tits?


Groot | Ascended Posting Frenzy
 
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One of Cheat's alts.
If you could influence gender, then that is what would be done with trans people instead of changing their bodies. But it doesn't really work, which is why it doesn't happen.

Sorry for making you all upsettable.
i mean influence in the sense that that's what i believe causes people to become dysphoric in the first place
i don't believe it's genetic

i could be wrong, but that's just what i always believed

you didn't make me upsettable, i just AM upsettable, so i should be sorry

it just really feels like i'm repeating myself constantly in this thread, which is frustrating when i have to do it for the people who are on my side of the issue
So in your ideal world, how would everyone behave and how would this all work in regard to trans people and transitioning? I guess I'm still not completely understanding your thoughts on this.


 
challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Verbatim
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If its inherent in the majority, yeah it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

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You really can't do it effectively. Pretty immoral, too.
Oh, it's extremely unethical. Undeniably. But that's not the subject, is it? The subject is whether it's possible, and, last night, I gathered all the information I could about the Money/Reiner case. Learned a lot. Formed a new conclusion from it.

First of all, Reiner was not castrated at all. He was undergoing a circumcision when something went horribly wrong. As a result, Money had recommended that he be reassigned as a female and raised as such. He reported the case as a success, when in actuality, Reiner never personally identified as a female, and began living as a male at age 15. He was suicidally depressed at that age, and finally did so when he was 38.

John Money was obviously a crazyfuck. A contemptible human being. However, from this case, I amend my position on the issue only slightly. His case, though it does NOT prove that gender is environmental, doesn't disprove it, either. You cannot simply raise a boy as a girl, or vice versa. That would be imposing. You can't force gender on someone. Your identity has to come about naturally and spontaneously. And depending on that social environment, it really could go either way. Male, female, or something in between (androgyny).

I consider myself androgynous-leaning-male in terms of my gender, for example. There are many traits I have that are stereotypically associated with women--other that are associated with men. Mostly men. It could be argued that most people have an androgynous gender. In fact, that's my argument.


 
Verbatim
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tl;dr

the only thing that john money's case proves is that you cannot impose genders

gender is acquired not through force, but by spontaneity, heuristics, and nuance


 
Verbatim
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and that's merely a hypothesis based on observations i've had throughout my life, combined with a basic understanding of brain development at young ages, so i don't have any hard evidence--but that's what i believe the truth to be, and i've seen nothing to contradict it thus far

you disagree, and i think that's just how it's going to be, unless you indeed have some evidence to quash that hypothesis
Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 04:11:23 PM by Verbatim


 
challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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challengerX
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Sandtrap
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Rockets on my X
I can't wrap my head around why this forum is so obsessed with the topic.

Who knows. Intriguing subject because of circumstance(s).

Skirts on all sorts of questions and topics. Big blurred field to discuss.


 
Verbatim
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Kinda is. Especially since you're arguing for the "brainwashing" of people to disregard gender.
Can you explain to me, then, how disregarding gender (as opposed to sex) would produce any sort of problems? I know you consider gender synonymous with sex, but I'm not using the word in the same way as you. I'm not saying we should disregard sex, but we certainly ought to disregard gender roles. So, explain to me why, if we threw away gender roles, that there would be some problem.

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I know all of this. That's why I said you can't condition gender.
I was merely summing up the key factors of the case. I was under the impression that the boy was castrated, but the fact that he wasn't kind of changes my argument a little bit.
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This is what I'm saying. Ideally, males and females are fine with their ended when born. Some people gender dysphoria (which is a mental illness) and screws up their perception of themselves.
Well, great. I think we're kind of on the same page, now. I would agree with you when you say that, ideally, males and females are fine with their... let's say, congruent sex/gender alignment. That's ideal.

However, what about those who aren't necessarily dysphoric, but are still nonbinary? They're still trans, but they're perfectly okay with that. Are you saying these people shouldn't be fine, or shouldn't be comfortable? And if so, why? Why does it matter, then, if they're perfectly content with their nonbinary status?

I don't contest that it's a disease--I'm merely illustrating scenarios where the disease has zero negative effect on the mental wellbeing of the individual.
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Environment comes into play, so do your genes and what your parents teach you.
I would agree.


 
Verbatim
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Also Verb, even if gender roles didn't exist, there would still be trans people with gender/body dysphoria.
Would it not have some effect, though? Would it not minimize it?

It's not really just getting rid of gender roles, either. That's sort of what I'm saying, but not really. I just don't believe in gender, to be honest with you. That's the easiest way I can put it. Most people think of gender as a "blue and pink" type issue. There's blue, and then there's pink. Some people believe there's a bit of purple in there.

Me, I think the entire thing is just one big purple blob. We have social filters that allow us to pick apart what makes this purple blob (the blues and the pinks) and we draw conclusions and associations from what we see. But objectively, realistically, if we looked at it from a nonbiased, nonhuman perspective, all we would see is an amorphous purple blob with equal parts of blue and pink making it up.

That's how I look at it. Someone who disagrees with me might say that there's not one purple blob, but two blobs--one blue, and one pink, and ne'er do they meet. This person is more likely to be transphobic. Obviously, an unhealthy viewpoint.

i could go on, but i just hope what i'm trying to illustrate is at all clear
Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 04:49:00 PM by Verbatim


 
Verbatim
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well, i'm glad that after 300+ replies, i finally have some support in that regard


 
Verbatim
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I mean I wouldn't outright say gender doesn't exist. It does. Gender is a form of self expression, be it man/boy, woman/girl, androgynous, agender (meaning you just don't associate with gender at all), genderqueer/genderfluid, etc. I don't really think that anyone is 100% one gender and that humanity as a whole is a wide spectrum (purple blob) that fades to different colors all over. No one is 100% masculine or feminine, and if you say that you are, you're lying. But that doesn't mean gender doesn't exist if a man is emotional or a woman is a cold hearted badass killer (a la stupid gender sterotypes).
it exists as an idea, i'll concede to that

in the same way that, like, laws exist.
they're complex cultural abstractions--social constructs, if i dare use that term again

and all that really means is that gender is immaterial
but by saying it doesn't exist, you're rejecting everything that makes the concept so pernicious and cumbersome

that's my intent, anyway