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Do you consider transgenderism a mental illness?

 
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Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 04:53:28 PM by challengerX

 
 
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i don't know who really denies that it's a disease

however, it isn't, in itself, harmful

 
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Quote from: Verbatim on June 04, 2015, 04:50:17 PM
i don't know who really denies that it's a disease

however, it isn't, in itself, harmful
Unless it leads to self harm, as body dysmorphic disorders often do.

 
 
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Quote from: Prime Servitor on June 04, 2015, 04:51:35 PM
Unless it leads to self harm, as body dysmorphic disorders often do.
hence "in itself"

 
 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
It's wrong.

 
 
 
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<.<
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 03:47:56 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 04, 2015, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 03:36:12 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 04, 2015, 03:34:18 PM
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 03:33:33 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 04, 2015, 03:31:25 PM
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 03:29:26 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 04, 2015, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 03:04:46 PM
What I meant is do you guys consider transgender people to be mentally ill?
My answer remains the same. Being transgender does not mean you're mentally ill.
Well, I think you're wrong.
You only think I'm wrong because you don't understand transgender stuff.
What are you 12?

I understand it just fine. It's a disorder.
You obviously don't understand it just fine if you think transgender and GID/gender dysphoria are the same thing.
Let me guess, you think gender and sex are different things?
Yes, because they are. I also think 1+1=2, and the Earth revolves around the sun.
LOL

You know the guy who said gender and sex are different things (John Money) is fucking wrong and insane, right? His experiment on David Reimer trying to prove gender is a social construct failed and the guy committed suicide because of the shit done to him trying to make him think he was a female.
Well that's one way to read the results, the other way is to see that forcing someone to be the wrong gender results in all kinds of mental fuckery. Money was a piece of shit and what he did with reimer is appalling, but that doesn't mean the work he did was worthless <.<

Gender is linked to your biology, that is clear. Gender roles are less linked to biology and are a more cultural/social related phenomenon. You look at cross cultural studies for this bit, so tribes where it's the mirror of the west with the women hunting and the men acting like girls would over here *Sorry muh patriarchy*

So in a similar vein to homosexuality being linked to hormone exposure in the womb, if a person who is XY is mistakenly exposed to XX developmental shite in the womb then you are likely to get a female inclined brain/mind (Which iirc is backed up by neuro-imaging studies showing differences in pathing) stuck in a male body. You mix gender into that as a post-natal deal and you've got a recipe for dysphoria <.<

And I wouldn't say it's a disease because that implies some sort of pathology being it, it's a disorder or an abnormality depending on how you want to define it but at the end of the day as with most things involving meatbags it boils down to 'do unto others' <.<

 
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Quote from: SecondClass on June 04, 2015, 04:54:43 PM
It's wrong.
we got that heel tag team in here now

 
 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Quote from: Verbatim on June 04, 2015, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: SecondClass on June 04, 2015, 04:54:43 PM
It's wrong.
we got that heel tag team in here now
I don't know what this means

 
 
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Quote from: SecondClass on June 04, 2015, 04:57:19 PM
I don't know what this means
lrn2wrestlingterminology

You're the heel. Booooo.
Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 05:00:55 PM by Verbatim

 
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:01:42 PM
What I'm saying is that you can't condition gender.
you can

he just did it badly

you don't fucking castrate a kid and expect things to go okay for him

 
 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:06:11 PM
Prove that you can.
i mean, i can do it just by logic, but you'd have to be willing to accept a series of premises

and since you've never accepted an opposing premise in your life, i wonder if i should waste my time

 
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Quote from: Verbatim on June 04, 2015, 05:15:00 PM
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:06:11 PM
Prove that you can.
i mean, i can do it just by logic, but you'd have to be willing to accept a series of premises

and since you've never accepted an opposing premise in your life, i wonder if i should waste my time
You can physically condition gender.

You can't do it socially; at least not very well.

 
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Quote from: Verbatim on June 04, 2015, 05:15:00 PM
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:06:11 PM
Prove that you can.
i mean, i can do it just by logic, but you'd have to be willing to accept a series of premises

and since you've never accepted an opposing premise in your life, i wonder if i should waste my time
Careful with that hostile language, Verb.

 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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No. That implies it needs curing.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:24:12 PM
No sources or proof of any kind, then?

Off to Tumblr with Mad.
fine

i have to ask you a question, then

How do you raise someone "as a girl"?

 
 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:35:41 PM
Because they're a girl.
That's not the question, idiot.

HOW do you raise someone "as a girl"?
What does it mean to raise someone as a girl?
What do you have to do?
What does it involve?
In what way is it different than raising someone as a boy?

 
 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:39:47 PM
There's nothing exactly inherent to women or men, if you ask me.
BINGO.

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.

Give me a second.

 
 
 
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<.<
Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:01:42 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on June 04, 2015, 04:55:47 PM
Well that's one way to read the results, the other way is to see that forcing someone to be the wrong gender results in all kinds of mental fuckery. Money was a piece of shit and what he did with reimer is appalling, but that doesn't mean the work he did was worthless <.<
What I'm saying is that you can't condition gender.

Quote
Quote
Gender is linked to your biology, that is clear. Gender roles are less linked to biology and are a more cultural/social related phenomenon. You look at cross cultural studies for this bit, so tribes where it's the mirror of the west with the women hunting and the men acting like girls would over here *Sorry muh patriarchy*
I'm not debating that.

I'm saying gender can't be conditioned/changed.

Ah, well in that case why would someone who's biological sex and identifying gender do not match need curing?
If it can't be changed, what's the issue with changing the more malleable part of a human to suit the mind?

Quote
Quote
So in a similar vein to homosexuality being linked to hormone exposure in the womb, if a person who is XY is mistakenly exposed to XX developmental shite in the womb then you are likely to get a female inclined brain/mind (Which iirc is backed up by neuro-imaging studies showing differences in pathing) stuck in a male body. You mix gender into that as a post-natal deal and you've got a recipe for dysphoria <.<

And I wouldn't say it's a disease because that implies some sort of pathology being it, it's a disorder or an abnormality depending on how you want to define it but at the end of the day as with most things involving meatbags it boils down to 'do unto others' <.<
Whatever you want to call it, it needs to be treated. That's my point.
[/quote]
Indeed and the current treatment is twofold, some people with mild dysphoria who don't necessarily need more than some guidance receive that and those who are woefully unhappy with their physical form receive the treatment for that and have it changed to suit their mental state.

There isn't a cure that banishes it back to the hinterlands, you can repress it and stifle it but it goes without saying that it's a terrible idea to do so.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:39:47 PM
There's nothing exactly inherent to women or men, if you ask me. I don't fall for the gender role bullshit.
So this is key, right? I agree with you completely. This is integral to my entire conception of the sex/gender dichotomy.

Because there's nothing (ignoring biological function) that separates the genders, a premise that you apparently accept, there is no need to act like you need to raise a boy "into a man" and a girl "into a woman". You should just raise them to be adults. Yes?

However, this doesn't change the fact that, historically, boys have been raised to exhibit a number of traits. Incoming stereotype/generalizations: Boys like "guy things". Little boys like to play with trucks and action figures (godforbid if you call them "dolls"). They don't write diarie--they write in journals. They're not afraid to get their hands dirty, and they're not afraid to get a little bit rough during playtime. When they grow up, men tend to be more competitively inclined than women. This is just the tip of the iceberg, but this is how the average boy tends to be raised in our society.

Women have their own traits that have been ingrained by society that I won't get into. In short, they tend to like "girly things" growing up. How many women do you know don't wear makeup? How many guys do you know wear makeup? Exactly.

If you raised a boy, then, what--if there's no gender boundaries, as you've stated--is stopping you from raising them "as a girl"? Have them watch Barbie movies. Have them play with dolls. Have them play House with their friends. Have them wear bright colors and froofy dresses. Have them wear makeup. Have them like all stereotypically "girly" things.

You know what I'm getting at.
That person was raised as a girl.

Chances are, they're going to think of themselves as a girl, genderly speaking.

They may come to be aware of their boyhood--but whose to say he's gonna start "reverting back" to a "boy's life" that he never had? Whose to say he wouldn't be perfectly comfortable living the "girl's life"?

The whole point is that this whole "gender" thing is all in our heads anyway.
That's what I've been trying to say this whole time, but no, people are too stupid.
Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 05:55:17 PM by Verbatim

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:24:12 PM
No sources or proof of any kind, then?

Off to Tumblr with Mad.
Quote from: Prime Servitor on June 04, 2015, 05:24:12 PM
I don't get how you could possibly agree with this shit.

 
 
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Quote from: challengerX on June 04, 2015, 05:54:25 PM
I'm high now so uh lol

I'll take this up tomorrow don't lock it
well, thanks for that courtesy, at least

nothing's worse than trying to discuss anything with someone who's high/drunk

 
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Oh Lawd Jesus this thread needs savin'.

 
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Noelle seemed a bit crazy, so maybe it is. I haven't ever met a tranny in person though.

 
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