Quote from: Luciana on December 11, 2016, 10:11:53 PMDo people actually think Putin wants closer ties with the US? No, but I don't think he wants war with us, either.Quoteand then we'll keep doing the same shit we've been doing since the USSR fell".Struggle economically while working tirelessly and arguably in vain to root out corruption and reestablish itself as a sovereign nation with global influence?
Do people actually think Putin wants closer ties with the US?
and then we'll keep doing the same shit we've been doing since the USSR fell".
What I find confusing is that people are OK with an adversarial foreign power meddling in our election just because their guy won.
"Russia is bad because they disrupt our imperialist and homogenizing policies on the world stage. Just submit and get on the Right Side of History, goy."
Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on December 11, 2016, 05:51:26 PMWhat I find confusing is that people are OK with an adversarial foreign power meddling in our election just because their guy won. It's not confusing at all. Some people clearly place a higher value on having their chosen president than they do on having a 'clean' election. Like when the Bolsheviks dissolved the National Assembly in 1917 after losing. Dodgy? Sure. Confusing? Not at all. People just value things differently. And it's pretty evident that a lot of Trump voters believe a Clinton presidency, rightly or wrongly, would be worse for America than Russia leaking some emails.
Quote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 12, 2016, 01:24:14 AMQuote from: MyNameIsCharlie on December 11, 2016, 05:51:26 PMWhat I find confusing is that people are OK with an adversarial foreign power meddling in our election just because their guy won. It's not confusing at all. Some people clearly place a higher value on having their chosen president than they do on having a 'clean' election. Like when the Bolsheviks dissolved the National Assembly in 1917 after losing. Dodgy? Sure. Confusing? Not at all. People just value things differently. And it's pretty evident that a lot of Trump voters believe a Clinton presidency, rightly or wrongly, would be worse for America than Russia leaking some emails.Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though, it's actually pretty surprising that the Congressional Republicans are pushing for a formal investigation - they have no need to allow it, they control both chambers and could prevent it if they want.
Quote from: Icy on December 12, 2016, 12:30:23 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 12, 2016, 01:24:14 AMQuote from: MyNameIsCharlie on December 11, 2016, 05:51:26 PMWhat I find confusing is that people are OK with an adversarial foreign power meddling in our election just because their guy won. It's not confusing at all. Some people clearly place a higher value on having their chosen president than they do on having a 'clean' election. Like when the Bolsheviks dissolved the National Assembly in 1917 after losing. Dodgy? Sure. Confusing? Not at all. People just value things differently. And it's pretty evident that a lot of Trump voters believe a Clinton presidency, rightly or wrongly, would be worse for America than Russia leaking some emails.Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though, it's actually pretty surprising that the Congressional Republicans are pushing for a formal investigation - they have no need to allow it, they control both chambers and could prevent it if they want.It depends on how deep it goes. If it's limited to a propaganda campaign, then they may be doing it because they hate the idea of Trump or they're like me in thinking any foreign meddling is bad. If it's all the way up to hacking our voting machines? And they knowingly benefited from inaction? That's treason.
I didn't say they were. I said if it goes that far. There are a lot of ifs right now.
Quote from: Icy on December 12, 2016, 12:30:23 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 12, 2016, 01:24:14 AMQuote from: MyNameIsCharlie on December 11, 2016, 05:51:26 PMWhat I find confusing is that people are OK with an adversarial foreign power meddling in our election just because their guy won. It's not confusing at all. Some people clearly place a higher value on having their chosen president than they do on having a 'clean' election. Like when the Bolsheviks dissolved the National Assembly in 1917 after losing. Dodgy? Sure. Confusing? Not at all. People just value things differently. And it's pretty evident that a lot of Trump voters believe a Clinton presidency, rightly or wrongly, would be worse for America than Russia leaking some emails.Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though, it's actually pretty surprising that the Congressional Republicans are pushing for a formal investigation - they have no need to allow it, they control both chambers and could prevent it if they want.They might want to get rid of Trump and make pence the president. The man is apparently receiving more briefings than trump anyway so I wouldn't be surprised if they're setting him up to take over.
Quote from: LC on December 12, 2016, 01:33:56 PMQuote from: Icy on December 12, 2016, 12:30:23 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 12, 2016, 01:24:14 AMQuote from: MyNameIsCharlie on December 11, 2016, 05:51:26 PMWhat I find confusing is that people are OK with an adversarial foreign power meddling in our election just because their guy won. It's not confusing at all. Some people clearly place a higher value on having their chosen president than they do on having a 'clean' election. Like when the Bolsheviks dissolved the National Assembly in 1917 after losing. Dodgy? Sure. Confusing? Not at all. People just value things differently. And it's pretty evident that a lot of Trump voters believe a Clinton presidency, rightly or wrongly, would be worse for America than Russia leaking some emails.Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though, it's actually pretty surprising that the Congressional Republicans are pushing for a formal investigation - they have no need to allow it, they control both chambers and could prevent it if they want.They might want to get rid of Trump and make pence the president. The man is apparently receiving more briefings than trump anyway so I wouldn't be surprised if they're setting him up to take over.They would need the support of Democrats to reach that point. And as much as the left doesn't like Trump, many of them are just as fearful of a Pence administration.So I still fail to see where McConnell and other Republican leaders are trying to go with these demands of an investigation. It pisses off their base, it pisses off their leader, and the likelihood of anything coming out of it is small. My best guess would be to feign bipartisanship ahead of 2020?This whole event is just becoming a mess. We have electors demanding an intelligent report ahead of their vote, Congress is splitting down party lines, and within parties themselves, on whether the FBI or CIA is correct, and the President-Elect continues to forge ahead with his administration building while continuing to denounce daily briefings as necessary.America, behold our government for the next four years.
Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 07:02:09 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 05:55:33 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 04:11:39 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 04:00:48 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 03:58:47 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 03:06:18 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.If subversion is a form of interference, US officials really have no ground to stand on by calling out Russia.It's not like the USG hasn't done the same, but I don't think that's an excuse.the US has done far worse than what Russia is accused of doing in this case.And while I don't really believe the Russians have done shit, even if they did, this is kind of a "get what's coming to you" moment. If the United States wants to continue pursuing foreign policy that violates international law and the integrity and inner workings of sovereign nations, its leaders have no business crying when the same things befall them. I think it's a fine excuse.I don't give a fuck if the Russians did interfere in our election because I don't support our government trying to make decisions for the rest of the world. Iraq was a fucking crime, Libya was a fucking crime, Syria is a botched crime still in progress. I believe in the sovereignty of independent states, and I'd like my own to be sovereign, but I can't really advocate for that when the officials that are supposed to represent me are trying to establish a global hegemony, with their fingers in everyone else's pies.Hypocrisy on behalf of the US is not a justification for another country doing the same. (I am not defending the US' meddling in other countries' elections.) It isn't a justification for, say, Zambia doing it to Chile, but it is entirely reasonable to give the US a taste of its own medicine.QuoteA side-effect of your position is the normalization Truly normalization is the most heinous crime of 2016.Quoteof this kind of behavior and letting it going unpunished. The US shouldn't do it, nor should any other country. Unfortunately, the US is doing it, and will continue to do it unless A) the US is crippled geopolitically or B) an isolationist regime takes power (the latter may have just happened, we'll see)QuoteIf Russia did interfere in the election, it should be punished regardless of whatever the US is guilty of itself. Violation of sovereignty is one of the highest crimes a country can commit against another.LMAO fuck off. Russia allegedly did it in order to cockblock a politician hellbent on starting "democratic revolutions" in every country not trading in USD and enslaving itself to the IMF. If it really happened, this would have been a violation of sovereignty done in order to prevent further violation of everyone's sovereignty.There is no "regardless of whatever the US is guilty of", because a humongous chunk of the geopolitical assfuckery in the world right now, including this, is a result of shit the US political establishment is guilty of. None of these people have any right to start pointing fingers at Russia, given their own treatment of countries that would prefer to stay out of the USA's sphere of influence, as well as their quite open ties to states like Saudi Arabia and Israel. Nobody in the media pressing this red scare shit seems to have been half as concerned about Clinton's relationship with the Saudis or the Chinese (the latter having been a common concern during Bill's presidency). That says a lot to me.You're arguing that:1) The entire population of the United States, a sovereign nation, deserved to have its democratic election disrupted as retribution for its government's actions abroad, despite that many of those actions are completely secret and unaccountable, and not necessarily endorsed by the citizenry, due to the nature of espionage2) Russia should go completely unpunished for this transgression, assuming they did itAre you legitimately brain damaged?
Quote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 05:55:33 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 04:11:39 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 04:00:48 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 03:58:47 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 03:06:18 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.If subversion is a form of interference, US officials really have no ground to stand on by calling out Russia.It's not like the USG hasn't done the same, but I don't think that's an excuse.the US has done far worse than what Russia is accused of doing in this case.And while I don't really believe the Russians have done shit, even if they did, this is kind of a "get what's coming to you" moment. If the United States wants to continue pursuing foreign policy that violates international law and the integrity and inner workings of sovereign nations, its leaders have no business crying when the same things befall them. I think it's a fine excuse.I don't give a fuck if the Russians did interfere in our election because I don't support our government trying to make decisions for the rest of the world. Iraq was a fucking crime, Libya was a fucking crime, Syria is a botched crime still in progress. I believe in the sovereignty of independent states, and I'd like my own to be sovereign, but I can't really advocate for that when the officials that are supposed to represent me are trying to establish a global hegemony, with their fingers in everyone else's pies.Hypocrisy on behalf of the US is not a justification for another country doing the same. (I am not defending the US' meddling in other countries' elections.) It isn't a justification for, say, Zambia doing it to Chile, but it is entirely reasonable to give the US a taste of its own medicine.QuoteA side-effect of your position is the normalization Truly normalization is the most heinous crime of 2016.Quoteof this kind of behavior and letting it going unpunished. The US shouldn't do it, nor should any other country. Unfortunately, the US is doing it, and will continue to do it unless A) the US is crippled geopolitically or B) an isolationist regime takes power (the latter may have just happened, we'll see)QuoteIf Russia did interfere in the election, it should be punished regardless of whatever the US is guilty of itself. Violation of sovereignty is one of the highest crimes a country can commit against another.LMAO fuck off. Russia allegedly did it in order to cockblock a politician hellbent on starting "democratic revolutions" in every country not trading in USD and enslaving itself to the IMF. If it really happened, this would have been a violation of sovereignty done in order to prevent further violation of everyone's sovereignty.There is no "regardless of whatever the US is guilty of", because a humongous chunk of the geopolitical assfuckery in the world right now, including this, is a result of shit the US political establishment is guilty of. None of these people have any right to start pointing fingers at Russia, given their own treatment of countries that would prefer to stay out of the USA's sphere of influence, as well as their quite open ties to states like Saudi Arabia and Israel. Nobody in the media pressing this red scare shit seems to have been half as concerned about Clinton's relationship with the Saudis or the Chinese (the latter having been a common concern during Bill's presidency). That says a lot to me.
Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 04:11:39 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 04:00:48 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 03:58:47 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 03:06:18 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.If subversion is a form of interference, US officials really have no ground to stand on by calling out Russia.It's not like the USG hasn't done the same, but I don't think that's an excuse.the US has done far worse than what Russia is accused of doing in this case.And while I don't really believe the Russians have done shit, even if they did, this is kind of a "get what's coming to you" moment. If the United States wants to continue pursuing foreign policy that violates international law and the integrity and inner workings of sovereign nations, its leaders have no business crying when the same things befall them. I think it's a fine excuse.I don't give a fuck if the Russians did interfere in our election because I don't support our government trying to make decisions for the rest of the world. Iraq was a fucking crime, Libya was a fucking crime, Syria is a botched crime still in progress. I believe in the sovereignty of independent states, and I'd like my own to be sovereign, but I can't really advocate for that when the officials that are supposed to represent me are trying to establish a global hegemony, with their fingers in everyone else's pies.Hypocrisy on behalf of the US is not a justification for another country doing the same. (I am not defending the US' meddling in other countries' elections.)
Quote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 04:00:48 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 03:58:47 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 03:06:18 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.If subversion is a form of interference, US officials really have no ground to stand on by calling out Russia.It's not like the USG hasn't done the same, but I don't think that's an excuse.the US has done far worse than what Russia is accused of doing in this case.And while I don't really believe the Russians have done shit, even if they did, this is kind of a "get what's coming to you" moment. If the United States wants to continue pursuing foreign policy that violates international law and the integrity and inner workings of sovereign nations, its leaders have no business crying when the same things befall them. I think it's a fine excuse.I don't give a fuck if the Russians did interfere in our election because I don't support our government trying to make decisions for the rest of the world. Iraq was a fucking crime, Libya was a fucking crime, Syria is a botched crime still in progress. I believe in the sovereignty of independent states, and I'd like my own to be sovereign, but I can't really advocate for that when the officials that are supposed to represent me are trying to establish a global hegemony, with their fingers in everyone else's pies.
Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 03:58:47 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 03:06:18 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.If subversion is a form of interference, US officials really have no ground to stand on by calling out Russia.It's not like the USG hasn't done the same, but I don't think that's an excuse.
Quote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 03:06:18 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.If subversion is a form of interference, US officials really have no ground to stand on by calling out Russia.
Quote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.
Quote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.
Quote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcy
Quote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.
inb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"
A side-effect of your position is the normalization
of this kind of behavior and letting it going unpunished. The US shouldn't do it, nor should any other country.
If Russia did interfere in the election, it should be punished regardless of whatever the US is guilty of itself. Violation of sovereignty is one of the highest crimes a country can commit against another.
Quote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 07:48:25 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 07:02:09 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 05:55:33 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 04:11:39 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 04:00:48 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 03:58:47 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 03:06:18 PMQuote from: MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE on December 11, 2016, 12:48:40 PMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 12:32:32 PMQuote from: باب عيد الميلاد on December 11, 2016, 10:50:10 AMQuote from: Kupo & the Two G-strings on December 11, 2016, 08:40:56 AMinb4 "this proves Russia dindu nuffin"Brah, Russia would've still dindu nuffin if they were behind the leaks. There's nothing wrong with exposing dirt on any political candidate or faction in any country.>there is nothing wrong with interfering in a sovereign democratic election nice ethical bankruptcyNo, there isn't. There's a problem with subverting one. You could make a solid case that this is Russia's motivation, of course, but there's a difference between interference and subversion.Subversion is a form of interference. You're truly delusional if you can't see that.If subversion is a form of interference, US officials really have no ground to stand on by calling out Russia.It's not like the USG hasn't done the same, but I don't think that's an excuse.the US has done far worse than what Russia is accused of doing in this case.And while I don't really believe the Russians have done shit, even if they did, this is kind of a "get what's coming to you" moment. If the United States wants to continue pursuing foreign policy that violates international law and the integrity and inner workings of sovereign nations, its leaders have no business crying when the same things befall them. I think it's a fine excuse.I don't give a fuck if the Russians did interfere in our election because I don't support our government trying to make decisions for the rest of the world. Iraq was a fucking crime, Libya was a fucking crime, Syria is a botched crime still in progress. I believe in the sovereignty of independent states, and I'd like my own to be sovereign, but I can't really advocate for that when the officials that are supposed to represent me are trying to establish a global hegemony, with their fingers in everyone else's pies.Hypocrisy on behalf of the US is not a justification for another country doing the same. (I am not defending the US' meddling in other countries' elections.) It isn't a justification for, say, Zambia doing it to Chile, but it is entirely reasonable to give the US a taste of its own medicine.QuoteA side-effect of your position is the normalization Truly normalization is the most heinous crime of 2016.Quoteof this kind of behavior and letting it going unpunished. The US shouldn't do it, nor should any other country. Unfortunately, the US is doing it, and will continue to do it unless A) the US is crippled geopolitically or B) an isolationist regime takes power (the latter may have just happened, we'll see)QuoteIf Russia did interfere in the election, it should be punished regardless of whatever the US is guilty of itself. Violation of sovereignty is one of the highest crimes a country can commit against another.LMAO fuck off. Russia allegedly did it in order to cockblock a politician hellbent on starting "democratic revolutions" in every country not trading in USD and enslaving itself to the IMF. If it really happened, this would have been a violation of sovereignty done in order to prevent further violation of everyone's sovereignty.There is no "regardless of whatever the US is guilty of", because a humongous chunk of the geopolitical assfuckery in the world right now, including this, is a result of shit the US political establishment is guilty of. None of these people have any right to start pointing fingers at Russia, given their own treatment of countries that would prefer to stay out of the USA's sphere of influence, as well as their quite open ties to states like Saudi Arabia and Israel. Nobody in the media pressing this red scare shit seems to have been half as concerned about Clinton's relationship with the Saudis or the Chinese (the latter having been a common concern during Bill's presidency). That says a lot to me.You're arguing that:1) The entire population of the United States, a sovereign nation, deserved to have its democratic election disrupted as retribution for its government's actions abroad, despite that many of those actions are completely secret and unaccountable, and not necessarily endorsed by the citizenry, due to the nature of espionage2) Russia should go completely unpunished for this transgression, assuming they did itAre you legitimately brain damaged?Do you not realize the consequences of a Hillary victory?
It's possible to want to avoid conflict with Russia
Why do people want to avoid confilict with Russia? I don't get it.
Quote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:33:44 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 05:59:37 AMWhy do people want to avoid confilict with Russia? I don't get it.is it really that difficult for you to grasp why some would want to avoid war with one of the US' major power rivalsi dont think it isIs it that difficult for you to grasp that it won't come to using nukes? We shouldn't be so afraid to tell Russia what for.
Quote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 05:59:37 AMWhy do people want to avoid confilict with Russia? I don't get it.is it really that difficult for you to grasp why some would want to avoid war with one of the US' major power rivalsi dont think it is
Quote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:56:03 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 02:53:50 PMQuote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:33:44 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 05:59:37 AMWhy do people want to avoid confilict with Russia? I don't get it.is it really that difficult for you to grasp why some would want to avoid war with one of the US' major power rivalsi dont think it isIs it that difficult for you to grasp that it won't come to using nukes? We shouldn't be so afraid to tell Russia what for.i made no mention of nukes so i dont know why youd bring that up.So what's the big deal?
Quote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 02:53:50 PMQuote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:33:44 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 05:59:37 AMWhy do people want to avoid confilict with Russia? I don't get it.is it really that difficult for you to grasp why some would want to avoid war with one of the US' major power rivalsi dont think it isIs it that difficult for you to grasp that it won't come to using nukes? We shouldn't be so afraid to tell Russia what for.i made no mention of nukes so i dont know why youd bring that up.
Quote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 03:03:33 PMQuote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:56:03 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 02:53:50 PMQuote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:33:44 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 05:59:37 AMWhy do people want to avoid confilict with Russia? I don't get it.is it really that difficult for you to grasp why some would want to avoid war with one of the US' major power rivalsi dont think it isIs it that difficult for you to grasp that it won't come to using nukes? We shouldn't be so afraid to tell Russia what for.i made no mention of nukes so i dont know why youd bring that up.So what's the big deal?because we'd be going to war with another superpower. i dont know why youre being so obtuse.
Quote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 03:52:25 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 03:03:33 PMQuote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:56:03 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 02:53:50 PMQuote from: Eli on December 15, 2016, 02:33:44 PMQuote from: challengerX on December 15, 2016, 05:59:37 AMWhy do people want to avoid confilict with Russia? I don't get it.is it really that difficult for you to grasp why some would want to avoid war with one of the US' major power rivalsi dont think it isIs it that difficult for you to grasp that it won't come to using nukes? We shouldn't be so afraid to tell Russia what for.i made no mention of nukes so i dont know why youd bring that up.So what's the big deal?because we'd be going to war with another superpower. i dont know why youre being so obtuse.Russia is nowhere near a superpower, despite how much they try to project they are.And to answer your point directly, so what SHOULD we do? Continue sanctions? As much as I'd love to, and as much as Europe is slowly finally coming on board to actually buffing up their military (thanks, Poland), Trump seems all too eager to get rid of those sanctions.
DNC leaks were an inside job, not Russian, claims former British ambassador
