Developments- I am a theist.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 04:41:59 PM

Wasn't Winy taking the exact opposite position against anti-natalism in Anarchy a few days ago?

Winy · November 30, 2015, 04:46:36 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 04:41:59 PM

Wasn't Winy taking the exact opposite position against anti-natalism in Anarchy a few days ago?

I agreed with Verb that the "Smart, ethical ideas" (However he phrased it) always won out in the end.

I disagree with both you and Verb that anti-natalism is either of those things.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 04:48:35 PM

Quote from: Winy on November 30, 2015, 04:46:36 PM

I disagree with both you and Verb that anti-natalism is either of those things.

That's a discussion for a different day.

Winy · November 30, 2015, 04:49:18 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 04:48:35 PM

Quote from: Winy on November 30, 2015, 04:46:36 PM
I disagree with both you and Verb that anti-natalism is either of those things.
That's a discussion for a different day.

I know, but I needed to clarify that my reference to what Verb said excluded his views on anti-natalism.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM

I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools; you're free to dance that dance but don't ever forget who's playing the tune.

As for belief, I think it's one of those ideas that while everyone knows about and has some form of opinion, you really can't handle those ideas without certain life experiences and perspectives, such as the importance of family, community, morality; and susceptible the human mind is to manipulation. I was brought up as a christian child but it never meant anything to me because I lacked the perspective on humanity that I know have; back then my Grandma died and all I could think of was "why would god allow that happen if he's so great?", that made me an atheist and stunted my mental growth for at least a decade.

To use an analogy, it's like people are trying to understand trigonometry without ever having seen a right angled triangle; while it's entirely possible to derive all the trig functions as solutions to differential equations in the form of their Taylor series without any reference to triangles, there's almost no justification to doing so, or explanation of it's quirks that way. You need the geometry behind the trig functions in the same way that people need to seriously examine the human mind and it's influences to understand god and religion.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 05:09:58 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM

I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools; you're free to dance that dance but don't ever forget who's playing the tune.

What.

DAS B00T x2 · November 30, 2015, 05:18:08 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM

I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools;

Nah bruh, they just trade a deity for the state.

Besides, Jesus would have liked mr. Engels.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:09:58 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools; you're free to dance that dance but don't ever forget who's playing the tune.

What.

A tool to make people arrogant, ignorant, and immoral. Atheism tells people that there is no absolute standard that you should hold yourself to, that anyone who claims as such is irrational and not nearly as smart as yourself, that you are above god and religion while simultaneously making "science" your new god and religion. I've spent enough time as an atheist to understand that it's all just a scam to trick people who believe they're far smarter than they actually are into believing bullshit. And the way in which it attacks western history and morality has communism written all over it.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 05:25:00 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM

A tool to make people arrogant, ignorant, and immoral.

Quote

Atheism tells people that there is no absolute standard that you should hold yourself to...

Except morality is objective whether you're an atheist or theist.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 05:25:26 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on November 30, 2015, 05:18:08 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools;
Nah bruh, they just trade a deity for the state.

Besides, Jesus would have liked mr. Engels.

That's half the problem, they find something else to worship while believing they're too smart to worship anything, the cognitive dissonance that creates destroys them.

DAS B00T x2 · November 30, 2015, 05:25:53 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:25:00 PM

Except morality is objective whether you're an atheist or theist.

That's dependent on you definition of morality.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 05:29:04 PM

I'm not an atheist because "science disproves religion" or whatever (even though it does). I'm an atheist because every deity I've encountered is just as immoral as its followers -- and any being that claims to be all-powerful, all-knowing, would recognise that eating animals or reproducing is wrong.

I don't believe God exists because there is no evidence, and I'm not a follower of religion because they're all similarly immoral.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 05:30:40 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on November 30, 2015, 05:25:53 PM

That's dependent on you definition of morality.

Nah.

DAS B00T x2 · November 30, 2015, 05:31:53 PM

I'm an atheist because I self-identified as a pagan for a few years but then I realized that anyone who unironically says that they're a pagan and isn't Varg Vikernes or referring to the biker gang is fucking dumb.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 05:35:30 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:25:00 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
A tool to make people arrogant, ignorant, and immoral.

Quote
Atheism tells people that there is no absolute standard that you should hold yourself to...

Except morality is objective whether you're an atheist or theist.

I can hardly have a discussion if you're not going to voice you thoughts. And even if an atheist went out of their way to define morality in a way that wasn't logically equivalent to christian morality, then they could still at any moment discard it since they have no absolute basis for it.

DAS B00T x2 · November 30, 2015, 05:38:38 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:35:30 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:25:00 PM
Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
A tool to make people arrogant, ignorant, and immoral.

Quote
Atheism tells people that there is no absolute standard that you should hold yourself to...

Except morality is objective whether you're an atheist or theist.
I can hardly have a discussion if you're not going to voice you thoughts. And even if an atheist went out of their way to define morality in a way that wasn't logically equivalent to christian morality, then they could still at any moment discard it since they have no absolute basis for it.

This is why people will usually find a philosophic school of thought to follow and hold to its tenants in the likes of religious commandments.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 05:42:07 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:35:30 PM

I can hardly have a discussion if you're not going to voice you thoughts.

I'm not trying to have a conversation with someone who starts their statements with "Atheism is just like communism, replacing "god" with science and being arrogant and ignorant all at once.

Sorry, I'm not sorry.

Quote

And even if an atheist went out of their way to define morality in a way that wasn't logically equivalent to christian morality...

"Christian morality" is an oxymoron. Taking the religious texts as they were intended -- that is, literally -- demonstrates the barbaric values and principles that the Jews were accustomed to. If you're referring to "modern" Christian morality, it is so watered-down from what it was meant to be that it's essentially a secular viewpoint with a god at the top saying "yeah, do good things", to which, people (seemingly arbitrarily) decide what is "good" and "bad" based on what society says.

If this is your attempt at trying to convert me, you're doing a poor job.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 05:44:32 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:29:04 PM

I'm not an atheist because "science disproves religion" or whatever (even though it does). I'm an atheist because every deity I've encountered is just as immoral as its followers -- and any being that claims to be all-powerful, all-knowing, would recognise that eating animals or reproducing is wrong.

I don't believe God exists because there is no evidence, and I'm not a follower of religion because they're all similarly immoral.

Religion is simply a means of controlling people's minds so that they act in a specific way, ideally they are controlled to become moral people that support their community and love their family; you cannot disprove that anymore than you can disprove conversations, that doesn't even make sense. Furthermore you can have a religion without believing in supernatural god, for most political views they act similarly to religion but substitute a man for god.

I am not at all sure what you mean by:

Quote

recognise that eating animals or reproducing is wrong.

Could you go into more detail?

Also for reference, my belief in god stems from my sense of morality, that I innately believe certain actions to be good and others to be perversions, in the same way that I innately desire to eat animals and reproduce.

DAS B00T x2 · November 30, 2015, 05:51:34 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:44:32 PM

I am not at all sure what you mean by:
Quote
recognise that eating animals or reproducing is wrong.
Could you go into more detail?

Long story short, he's a vegan and anti-natalist.

Humans are parasitic on other lifeforms and birth is both non-consensual and creates suffering and therefore bad.

Or something like that...

Elai · November 30, 2015, 05:53:12 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:44:32 PM

Religion is simply a means of controlling people's minds so that they act in a specific way.

So 'God' doesn't exist? Because if he does, then 'religion' is more than just 'a means to control people'.

Quote

Ideally, they are controlled to become moral people that support their community and love their family.

Sure, but based on your statements above, you don't believe 'God' exists, and that would mean 'religion' is arbitrarily deciding what is 'good' the same way an atheist is.

Again, if 'God' does exist, then religion is more than a tool to control people.

Quote

You cannot disprove that anymore than you can disprove conversations, that doesn't even make sense.

What am I supposed to be 'disproving' here?

Quote

Furthermore you can have a religion without believing in supernatural god, for most political views they act similarly to religion but substitute a man for god.

I just don't see the point of 'religion' without a deity. It's just... if you concede that religion can exist without a god, then these 'religions' are just as arbitrary as an atheist's sense of morality. If you can act morally without a god, why wouldn't you just do that...? Seems like a ton of work for nothing.

Quote

I am not at all sure what you mean by:
Quote
recognise that eating animals or reproducing is wrong.
Could you go into more detail?

Sure. Eating animals is wrong and having kids are objectively wrong things to do. I haven't seen a single religion acknowledge or preach this.

Verbatim · November 30, 2015, 05:53:39 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 01:03:35 AM

I've learned to see the world from a rigorous, mathematically logical perspective

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM

I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools; you're free to dance that dance but don't ever forget who's playing the tune.

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 01:03:35 AM

I've learned to see the world from a rigorous, mathematically logical perspective

sorry, but i'm just never gonna let that die

Elai · November 30, 2015, 05:54:51 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on November 30, 2015, 05:51:34 PM

Long story short, he's a vegan and anti-natalist.

Humans are parasitic on other lifeforms and birth is both non-consensual and creates suffering and therefore bad.

Or something like that...

Pretty much. But I'm not going to turn this into a "vegan/anti-natalist" thread. He can either acknowledge that I find both things wrong and argue from that mindset, or he can stop. I'm not going to push my ideas where they aren't welcomed.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 05:58:03 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:42:07 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:35:30 PM
I can hardly have a discussion if you're not going to voice you thoughts.

I'm not trying to have a conversation with someone who starts their statements with "Atheism is just like communism, replacing "god" with science and being arrogant and ignorant all at once.

Sorry, I'm not sorry.

Quote
And even if an atheist went out of their way to define morality in a way that wasn't logically equivalent to christian morality...

"Christian morality" is an oxymoron. Taking the religious texts as they were intended -- that is, literally -- demonstrates the barbaric values and principles that the Jews were accustomed to. If you're referring to "modern" Christian morality, it is so watered-down from what it was meant to be that it's essentially a secular viewpoint with a god at the top saying "yeah, do good things", to which, people (seemingly arbitrarily) decide what is "good" and "bad" based on what society says.

If this is your attempt at trying to convert me, you're doing a poor job.

If you didn't want a conversation then why even reply to me? why are you even posting in the serious forum?
And I did not say atheism is like communism, but that it is a tool that is used by communists to great success. You see in their manifesto they make it very clear that they hate western culture and history in all it's aspects and wish nothing more than to destroy everything that makes Europe and the west what it is. Christian religion has been a fundamental part of the European way of life so naturally the communists would seek to destroy it, both to remove it's cultural influence and to make it easier for their influence to spread. Atheism is simply the means they choose to go about doing so, because it appeals to human intelligence.

I do not find my sense of morality to be arbitrary; as a child I noticed it but struggled to justify it in the same way I struggled to explain why I would fall asleep at night; recently I have been constructing my own theory of why I have a sense of morality and what it means, and I have found the christian perspective to be the missing pieces in that theory that I was looking for. I haven't had the time to fully read over the bible and talk to local pastors about exactly where my viewpoint stands though.

Winy · November 30, 2015, 06:00:53 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM

Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:09:58 PM
Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools; you're free to dance that dance but don't ever forget who's playing the tune.

What.
A tool to make people arrogant, ignorant, and immoral. Atheism tells people that there is no absolute standard that you should hold yourself to, that anyone who claims as such is irrational and not nearly as smart as yourself, that you are above god and religion while simultaneously making "science" your new god and religion. I've spent enough time as an atheist to understand that it's all just a scam to trick people who believe they're far smarter than they actually are into believing bullshit. And the way in which it attacks western history and morality has communism written all over it.

"I was a misguided and misinformed atheists, therefore everyone else must be."

What you're saying is ridiculous.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 06:02:04 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on November 30, 2015, 05:38:38 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: Eliab on November 30, 2015, 05:25:00 PM
Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
A tool to make people arrogant, ignorant, and immoral.

Quote
Atheism tells people that there is no absolute standard that you should hold yourself to...

Except morality is objective whether you're an atheist or theist.
I can hardly have a discussion if you're not going to voice you thoughts. And even if an atheist went out of their way to define morality in a way that wasn't logically equivalent to christian morality, then they could still at any moment discard it since they have no absolute basis for it.
This is why people will usually find a philosophic school of thought to follow and hold to its tenants in the likes of religious commandments.

I admit I haven't had the mental capacity to even understand most philosophy until recently, and right now I haven't had the chance to go over it, though I will start with plato today. I'm also not familiar with paganism so I'm not capable of discussing that.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 06:04:04 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:58:03 PM

If you didn't want a conversation then why even reply to me? Why are you even posting in the serious forum?

Because you said something outlandish and I wanted to point it out; because I'm looking for a serious reason to believe in a god.

Cadenza has moved on · November 30, 2015, 06:05:11 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on November 30, 2015, 05:53:39 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 01:03:35 AM
I've learned to see the world from a rigorous, mathematically logical perspective
Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
I'd like to remind everyone that atheism is one of communism's most effective tools; you're free to dance that dance but don't ever forget who's playing the tune.
Quote from: Cadenza on October 13, 2015, 01:03:35 AM
I've learned to see the world from a rigorous, mathematically logical perspective

sorry, but i'm just never gonna let that die

Please don't, I'll wear it with a badge of honor. Every time I make a mistake that just brings me one step closer to the truth. I'll happily make a fool myself now for all the world to see if it means I'll never make those mistakes again.

challengerX · November 30, 2015, 06:05:42 PM

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Elai · November 30, 2015, 06:05:47 PM

God-damn, Door, get online and reply to my initial post.

Elai · November 30, 2015, 06:06:45 PM

Quote from: Cadenza on November 30, 2015, 06:05:11 PM

Every time I make a mistake that just brings me one step closer to the truth.

I actually respect this. Good for you.