Empiricism and faith do not mesh. I'm okay with that.
I consider protestantism a shit meme and I don't see myself stopping my criticisms of it.
Quote from: Winy on November 29, 2015, 11:47:44 PMreligion is dyingIslam would like a word
religion is dying
Islam would like a word
Quote from: Mr. Psychologist on November 30, 2015, 10:50:06 AMQuote from: Cyrus on November 29, 2015, 07:00:41 PMI consider protestantism a shit meme and I don't see myself stopping my criticisms of it.I'm kinda curious as to why you think this, it's never struck me as all that bad as compared to catholicism.Sola Scriptura (which ironically has no scriptural basis), and an excessive focus on individualism that leads to schismatic tendencies.Sola Scriptura is one thing, but without an adaptable semi-central authority you wind up with a million interpretations of a two thousand year old text. And instead of debating and working with other theologians to work out how best to interpret the scripture, you have people treating a millenia-old book with seemingly contradictory messages as infallible, with every single one convinced his interpretation is totally right. It's a similar problem to the treatment of the Quran in Islam, only compounded by the fact that the Bible, unlike the Quran, has been through a dozen translations in dead languages before it reaches the modern reader, and even then varies somewhat depending on what version you get in your language. There isn't even a universally recognized canon in protestantism, so some branches omit books and include some that other branches omit, and you get shit like the Mormons writing new fucking books. Without apolistic succession and respect for thousands of years of Christian history and tradition, focusing on scripture alone will get you into a fucking mess.It's also developed ridiculous levels of individualism that lead to new schisms literally every day. First ol' Marty Luther broke off from Rome with the backing of power-hungry European kings, then Henry VIII decided that getting a divorce was worth breaking off from the Church. So you have this historical precedent for taking your ball and going home when someone disagrees. While today you have Oriental and Eastern Orthodox finally wrapping up a millenia-old issue on the nature of christ and working to come back into communion, and people constantly looking for ways to bridge the deep divide between Roman Catholic and Orthodox christianity, new Protestant denominations pop up left and right. It's absurd. Instead of working to reestablish communion amongst themselves, Protestant leaders bail on their current church and take their followers with them at the first sign of disagreement because "lol i read the bible this way and its infallible so i must be right". There's no collaboration or cooperation at all. That's how you wind up with the same holy book spawning "God hates fags", "The bible says no h8 so pls allow transgender lesbian clergy", along with inane cults like Mormonism. This is not a problem for Catholicism or Orthodoxy. And today you see the schismaticism reaching it's logical conclusion, the "I love Jesus but hate religion" types who never set foot in a church and decide for themselves that the Bible is somehow only subject to their personal understanding. This attitude completely destroys Christ's Church and makes communion impossible.TL;DR Martin Luther is a fag
Quote from: Cyrus on November 29, 2015, 07:00:41 PMI consider protestantism a shit meme and I don't see myself stopping my criticisms of it.I'm kinda curious as to why you think this, it's never struck me as all that bad as compared to catholicism.
Quote from: Winy on November 30, 2015, 01:38:42 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 30, 2015, 12:55:52 PMIslam would like a wordI'm right.You're right in that Islam is on a path to leveling itself out and possibly seeing a collective reformation in order to escape radicalism.Realistically we can only expect Islam to increase in influence for the next few decades.
Quote from: challengerX on November 30, 2015, 12:55:52 PMIslam would like a wordI'm right.
Quote from: Verbatim on November 29, 2015, 11:33:24 PMHow unfortunate.I get why it seems silly to you. Especially given how I've been on religion in the past. But is it really unfortunate? Me believing or disbelieving has little impact on anything outside of my personal life and worldview.I'm not interested in arguing about the validity or lack thereof of my newfound belief in a higher power. I know why you think it's stupid and I'm not going to convince you or anyone else here otherwise with words. Empiricism and faith do not mesh. I'm okay with that.
How unfortunate.
Quote from: Winy on November 30, 2015, 01:38:42 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 30, 2015, 12:55:52 PMIslam would like a wordI'm right.You're not right about anything. Islam is the largest religion in the world and it keeps growing and its followers have breed as fast as rabbits. To say it's not relevant, especially when they're given free reign to practice their barbarism in the West, is nothing short of idiocy.
Quote from: challengerX on November 30, 2015, 01:53:13 PMQuote from: Winy on November 30, 2015, 01:38:42 PMQuote from: challengerX on November 30, 2015, 12:55:52 PMIslam would like a wordI'm right.You're not right about anything. Islam is the largest religion in the world and it keeps growing and its followers have breed as fast as rabbits. To say it's not relevant, especially when they're given free reign to practice their barbarism in the West, is nothing short of idiocy. Whoooooaaaahhh take a look at this! It's almost like there exists some sort of "Trend" phenomenon in this graph. Almost as if individual points don't necessarily reflect the "General" path of the line. Some sort of "Line" of "Best Fit," one might say.
QuoteHmm, all fair enough criticisms really.The only thing I'd question there is the whole bit about christ's church, he never made a church it was his followers that did. His whole deal was reaching out to the downtrodden and condemning those who sat up high on the altars to look down on the non-clergy (I forget the opposite of pharisee), unless of course as you've pointed out the thousands of different versions of the bible tend to get a bit prone to personal tweaking and the one I read as a kid skipped the part where he laid out the plans for a pope.Papacy is essentially a Roman attempt to take Christianity by the reigns, so you really won't find it backed up by scripture unless you jump through a lot of hoops and REALLY overemphasize Peter's importance.He did, however, establish a Church in the NT. "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18) -Jesus is building his church, on the rock that is the apostles"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18)"Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23) "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (Matthew 28:19)"if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)
Hmm, all fair enough criticisms really.The only thing I'd question there is the whole bit about christ's church, he never made a church it was his followers that did. His whole deal was reaching out to the downtrodden and condemning those who sat up high on the altars to look down on the non-clergy (I forget the opposite of pharisee), unless of course as you've pointed out the thousands of different versions of the bible tend to get a bit prone to personal tweaking and the one I read as a kid skipped the part where he laid out the plans for a pope.
QuoteI guess the reason I prefer(*?) CoE/Protestant branches over catholicism is it seems a bit more focussed on the teachings and community rather than a lot of the traditionalist things that go with Catholicism.The problem is that without tradition, you can make a mess of the teachings.
I guess the reason I prefer(*?) CoE/Protestant branches over catholicism is it seems a bit more focussed on the teachings and community rather than a lot of the traditionalist things that go with Catholicism.
QuoteThis is obviously only what I've seen in the UK, but your typical protestant church isn't adorned with gilded furniture and expensive as all hell architecture. There isn't money pouring out of every part of the church, with the money that would be spent on that sort of excess going into community projects instead.While I agree wholeheartedly with religious institutions being active in the community and helping those in need, I think it's silly for an organized religion to overemphasize modesty when it comes to places devoted to their god. If you can build a Church, God's house on earth, why wouldn't you make it as ornate and grand as possible? He's God, he's far above modesty.
This is obviously only what I've seen in the UK, but your typical protestant church isn't adorned with gilded furniture and expensive as all hell architecture. There isn't money pouring out of every part of the church, with the money that would be spent on that sort of excess going into community projects instead.
QuoteCatholicism always seemed a lot more removed from this, with the division of clergy and congregation a lot more defined.Well yeah, you don't want just any idiot representing the church. Clergy should be well-trained, although they are just people and should be treated as such. I don't know how catholicism is with laypeople but in orthodoxy members of the congregation carry some weight. It is crucial, though, that the people running the Church know what they're talking about and the history of what they're talking about. Some guy off the street just won't do.
Catholicism always seemed a lot more removed from this, with the division of clergy and congregation a lot more defined.
QuoteYou have abbeys and convents where the pious remove themselves from the world to pray all day,A good thing, for them. The world is corrupt and dirty, why would you want to be close to it?
You have abbeys and convents where the pious remove themselves from the world to pray all day,
Quoteservices in a language next to nobody speaks anymore and the ritualistic stuff that goes on with incense/Eucharist etc.Tradition, which is important not only as it ties into the theology, but also as a way to fortify community and identity within the church.
services in a language next to nobody speaks anymore and the ritualistic stuff that goes on with incense/Eucharist etc.
QuoteNone of that really appeals to me, it always struck me as the people being more important in the faith than the traditions. *?Prefer isn't really the right word, since that would imply picking one over the other but I'd say I find it more agreeable for the reasons above.different strokes
None of that really appeals to me, it always struck me as the people being more important in the faith than the traditions. *?Prefer isn't really the right word, since that would imply picking one over the other but I'd say I find it more agreeable for the reasons above.
Good to know that we just have to sit and wait out the Islamic threat to the western world, because you know what the future of Islam brings and I can trust you to know that the current trend of religious decline is definite and ever continuing.
Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on November 30, 2015, 02:41:06 PMGood to know that we just have to sit and wait out the Islamic threat to the western world, because you know what the future of Islam brings and I can trust you to know that the current trend of religious decline is definite and ever continuing.It's insanely obvious that religion is declining, and it's going to continue doing that. What's caused its decline? Why are people relying less and less on theology to determine things? Technology, communication, distribution of information, and scientific reasoning. Are those things going away any time soon? No. They aren't. And as long as they continue to progress, religiosity will continuously go on a downward slope.I thoroughly disagree with anybody who argues that Islamic extremism is capable of stopping this progression to any meaningful degree. So yes, Islam is irrelevant to the greater trends. One group of loons doesn't speak for the remainder of societies that are clearly and increasingly becoming less religious, unless you think that atheists and agnostics are going to start throwing in with the Jihadists. That's such a short-sighted method of thinking.
The Muslim population as a whole is growing and shows no indication of stoppage, not just the extremists.
But really, winy, the internet and it's information can also propagate religious ideology. Don't assume that it will destroy it.I mean, just log on to facebook sometime.
Developments- I am a theist.
