Democracy/Republic v Theocracy

Release · January 01, 2015, 02:36:58 AM

Hypothetical scenario: if you were the citizen of a newly forming, very small country, would you rather the government comprise of elected officials, a direct democracy, or be under the complete guidance of a benevolent, all-knowing deity?

Verbatim · January 01, 2015, 02:51:41 AM

If the deity is benevolent and all-knowing, I mean, the question kinda answers itself, doesn't it?

Mordo · January 01, 2015, 05:54:18 AM

I'm not sure if that's a theocracy...

More Than Mortal · January 01, 2015, 06:36:08 AM

First of all that's not a direct democracy.

Second of all that's not a theocracy.

Kinder Graham · January 01, 2015, 10:59:50 AM

>putting democracy and republic in the same category

Dustin · January 01, 2015, 11:11:33 AM

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More Than Mortal · January 01, 2015, 11:21:16 AM

Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 10:59:50 AM

>putting democracy and republic in the same category

>implying you can't have both at the same time

America is both a democracy and a republic. In fact, most republics are democracies (I can't think of a single on which isn't).

w/e · January 01, 2015, 12:20:06 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 01, 2015, 11:21:16 AM

Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 10:59:50 AM
>putting democracy and republic in the same category
>implying you can't have both at the same time

America is both a democracy and a republic. In fact, most republics are democracies (I can't think of a single on which isn't).

Isn't it indirective democracy (Swe-term for it)? You elect people that stand for what you want, and then they get all of the power and make your decisions for you. Isn't that what being republic is about?

Quote

republic
rɪˈpʌblɪk/Submit
noun
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

If it's true, then it is by definition a democracy.

More Than Mortal · January 01, 2015, 12:31:25 PM

Quote from: Royal Light on January 01, 2015, 12:20:06 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 01, 2015, 11:21:16 AM
Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 10:59:50 AM
>putting democracy and republic in the same category
>implying you can't have both at the same time

America is both a democracy and a republic. In fact, most republics are democracies (I can't think of a single on which isn't).
Isn't it indirective democracy (Swe-term for it)? You elect people that stand for what you want, and then they get all of the power and make your decisions for you. Isn't that what being republic is about?
Quote
republic
rɪˈpʌblɪk/Submit
noun
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
If it's true, then it is by definition a democracy.

We'd call that a representative democracy, which is originally what republicanism was about (according to the Founding Fathers). However, representative democracies can co-exist with constitutional monarchies, as it does in my country.

Republicanism, nowadays, is just having an elected head of state.

Dustin · January 01, 2015, 01:29:23 PM

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More Than Mortal · January 01, 2015, 01:33:17 PM

Quote from: WBC Dustin on January 01, 2015, 01:29:23 PM

Also the two smartest people on the forum believe in god (Turkey anf Goji), so there's definitely some truth to behind creationism

Goji isn't religious. . .

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 01, 2015, 01:34:45 PM

I'm predominantly against organized religion, so I'd vote for a Republic.

Dustin · January 01, 2015, 01:40:35 PM

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Kinder Graham · January 01, 2015, 04:00:17 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 01, 2015, 11:21:16 AM

Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 10:59:50 AM
>putting democracy and republic in the same category
>implying you can't have both at the same time

America is both a democracy and a republic. In fact, most republics are democracies (I can't think of a single on which isn't).

America uses some aspects of democracy, just like how America does use some aspects of socialism, without being socialist. America is ultimately a Constitutional Republic; Article 4 section 4 of the Constitution prescribes that “the United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government", not a Democratic form of government

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic
http://madisonproject.com/2013/09/we-the-people-a-constitutional-republic-not-a-democracy/

A Democracy is different, as it employs the majority of the populace to rule and thus a rule by majority

Verbatim · January 01, 2015, 04:02:11 PM

Quote from: Prime Meridia on January 01, 2015, 01:34:45 PM

I'm predominantly against organized religion, so I'd vote for a Republic.

But I mean... he's benevolent AND all-knowing.

It's not like he/she/it necessarily has this vague tome filled with weak parables and allegories up for interpretation, resulting in a lot of petty arguing and squabbling between earthly folk who can't figure out what god is or what he's trying to accomplish. We have his predisposition laid out in front of us, conclusively. There'd be a god--he's good--and he knows everything.

Yeah, yeah, "good is subjective", whatever. To me, it's pretty obvious what benevolent would mean if you're someone who is omniscient. As long as the god isn't omnipotent, I don't see any real disadvantage, even if it is a religion. The only reason I'm against organized religion right now is because all of the gods we have dreamt up of fucking suck, and there's no way to even prove that they exist (mostly because they don't).

But I mean, I refer to my initial response... I don't really see any disadvantage if we're conclusively told, "Yeah, there's this benevolent god character who's gonna show you the way". I mean, shit, sign me up.

I don't even think you could even call that a religion, much less a theocracy, as Meta pointed out.

More Than Mortal · January 01, 2015, 04:02:17 PM

Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 04:00:17 PM

A Democracy is different, as it employs the majority of the populace to rule and thus a rule by majority

Well that's just not true since we don't have a constitutional form of democracy, yet we have parliamentary sovereignty.

If you vote for your representatives, you're a representative democracy; there really is no two ways about it. The problem seems to be Americans have a habit of conflating direct democracy with democracy altogether, when really since the time of Burke the representative democracy has been the greater force.

Kinder Graham · January 01, 2015, 04:08:34 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 01, 2015, 04:02:17 PM

Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 04:00:17 PM
A Democracy is different, as it employs the majority of the populace to rule and thus a rule by majority
Well that's just not true since we don't have a constitutional form of democracy, yet we have parliamentary sovereignty.

If you vote for your representatives, you're a representative democracy; there really is no two ways about it.

I'm assuming you're referring to the UK? You have a Constitutional Monarchy

And while rep. democracies and cons. republics are similar, the former is governed by a constitution

More Than Mortal · January 01, 2015, 04:13:00 PM

Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 04:08:34 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 01, 2015, 04:02:17 PM
Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 04:00:17 PM
A Democracy is different, as it employs the majority of the populace to rule and thus a rule by majority
Well that's just not true since we don't have a constitutional form of democracy, yet we have parliamentary sovereignty.

If you vote for your representatives, you're a representative democracy; there really is no two ways about it.
I'm assuming you're referring to the UK? You have a Constitutional Monarchy

And while rep. democracies and cons. republics are similar, the former is governed by a constitution

I didn't say we don't have a constitutional monarchy; I'm aware we have a queen.

You're missing the point that democracies and republics and monarchies aren't at all exclusive to each other. The only point at which it becomes exclusive is when you're discussing direct democracy only, which very few countries actually realise. My constitutional monarchy, and your constitutional republic, are still both representative democracies in that they are governed--in principle--by way of citizens comprising an electorate which makes up a body of representatives.

Just because the notional of constitutionality in your country, and parliamentary sovereignty in mine, constrains the nature of democracy relative to direct democracy, it still doesn't mean it's any less a democracy. It's just different.

Kinder Graham · January 01, 2015, 04:15:53 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 01, 2015, 04:13:00 PM

Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 04:08:34 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on January 01, 2015, 04:02:17 PM
Quote from: Kinder der Mörder on January 01, 2015, 04:00:17 PM
A Democracy is different, as it employs the majority of the populace to rule and thus a rule by majority
Well that's just not true since we don't have a constitutional form of democracy, yet we have parliamentary sovereignty.

If you vote for your representatives, you're a representative democracy; there really is no two ways about it.
I'm assuming you're referring to the UK? You have a Constitutional Monarchy

And while rep. democracies and cons. republics are similar, the former is governed by a constitution
I didn't say we don't have a constitutional monarchy; I'm aware we have a queen.

You're missing the point that democracies and republics and monarchies aren't at all exclusive to each other. The only point at which it becomes exclusive is when you're discussing direct democracy only, which very few countries actually realise. My constitutional monarchy, and your constitutional republic, are still both representative democracies in that they are governed--in principle--by way of citizens comprising an electorate which makes up a body of representatives.

Just because the notional of constitutionality in your country, and parliamentary sovereignty in mine, constrains the nature of democracy relative to direct democracy, it still doesn't mean it's any less a democracy. It's just different.

2complicate4me

All these labels are quite confusing. I'll just stick with calling America a Republic and call it a day. You can call it what you want

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 01, 2015, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on January 01, 2015, 04:02:11 PM

Quote from: Prime Meridia on January 01, 2015, 01:34:45 PM
I'm predominantly against organized religion, so I'd vote for a Republic.
But I mean... he's benevolent AND all-knowing.

It's not like he/she/it necessarily has this vague tome filled with weak parables and allegories up for interpretation, resulting in a lot of petty arguing and squabbling between earthly folk who can't figure out what god is or what he's trying to accomplish. We have his predisposition laid out in front of us, conclusively. There'd be a god--he's good--and he knows everything.

Yeah, yeah, "good is subjective", whatever. To me, it's pretty obvious what benevolent would mean if you're someone who is omniscient. As long as the god isn't omnipotent, I don't see any real disadvantage, even if it is a religion. The only reason I'm against organized religion right now is because all of the gods we have dreamt up of fucking suck, and there's no way to even prove that they exist (mostly because they don't).

But I mean, I refer to my initial response... I don't really see any disadvantage if we're conclusively told, "Yeah, there's this benevolent god character who's gonna show you the way". I mean, shit, sign me up.

I don't even think you could even call that a religion, much less a theocracy, as Meta pointed out.

I was speaking terms of an actual theocracy. If there was a proven, benevolent diety that showed himself and set himself up as head of government I don't think it'd be possible to tell him "no". He's omniscient and omnipotent, he can do whatever the fuck he wants whether we'd want it or not!

Verbatim · January 01, 2015, 04:41:51 PM

Of course. OP didn't say omnipotent, though; just omniscient. I think that's kind of important.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · January 01, 2015, 05:55:57 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on January 01, 2015, 04:41:51 PM

Of course. OP didn't say omnipotent, though; just omniscient. I think that's kind of important.

Eh, usually one comes with the other when speaking of monotheistic religions.

Turkey · January 01, 2015, 06:34:17 PM

Quote from: WBC Dustin on January 01, 2015, 01:29:23 PM

Also the two smartest people on the forum believe in god (Turkey anf Goji), so there's definitely some truth to behind creationism

dusty pls

First of all, there are many smarter people here, I just know how to Google stuff really well.

Second, even if I was, I'd hope nobody would convert simply because someone smarter than them did it.

Third, while I do believe in a type of creationism (as anyone following ostensibly any deism must), I don't believe in the modern anti-scientific rhetoric of fundamentalist creationists.

OT: I don't really see why anyone would choose a representative government over one ruled directly by a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent deity, though there were a lot of assumptions in those qualifiers.

g💚jira · January 01, 2015, 10:19:26 PM

Quote from: Auld Lang Turkey on January 01, 2015, 06:34:17 PM

Quote from: WBC Dustin on January 01, 2015, 01:29:23 PM
Also the two smartest people on the forum believe in god (Turkey anf Goji), so there's definitely some truth to behind creationism

dusty pls

First of all, there are many smarter people here, I just know how to Google stuff really well.

Second, even if I was, I'd hope nobody would convert simply because someone smarter than them did it.

Third, while I do believe in a type of creationism (as anyone following ostensibly any deism must), I don't believe in the modern anti-scientific rhetoric of fundamentalist creationists.

OT: I don't really see why anyone would choose a representative government over one ruled directly by a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent deity, though there were a lot of assumptions in those qualifiers.

Release · January 09, 2015, 01:31:16 PM

You've all made some exceptional points. However, I neglected to clarify my question earlier.

Would you rather live in a society that has the complete freedom to choose how to build its own nation, or one where there are limited freedoms? The former includes the possibility of war, famine, and huge negative repercussions from mismanagement in general; the latter includes complete safety from the aforementioned possibilities, but again, there's going to be limited freedoms, namely ones that could be potentially considered blasphemous (use your beautiful imaginations here)

Yes, I realize it's not quite a theocracy, I suppose I'm using the term loosely here <.<

Mad Max · January 09, 2015, 01:32:42 PM

Quote from: Forgotten Memory on January 01, 2015, 02:36:58 AM

Hypothetical scenario: if you were the citizen of a newly forming, very small country, would you rather the government comprise of elected officials, a direct democracy, or be under the complete guidance of a benevolent, all-knowing deity?

How can you choose to live under such a deity? It's not up to you to choose.

Release · January 09, 2015, 01:36:37 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on January 09, 2015, 01:32:42 PM

Quote from: Forgotten Memory on January 01, 2015, 02:36:58 AM
Hypothetical scenario: if you were the citizen of a newly forming, very small country, would you rather the government comprise of elected officials, a direct democracy, or be under the complete guidance of a benevolent, all-knowing deity?
How can you choose to live under such a deity? It's not up to you to choose.

Let's just say the deity gives you the option here