Consent to murder - Right or Wrong?

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:08:30 PM

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Mr. Psychologist · November 01, 2014, 03:12:21 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:08:30 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on November 01, 2014, 03:04:44 PM
Being drunk is the result of your idiotic choices, you aren't responsible for becoming mentally ill.

You are responsible with managing your mentality, we all are. As long as you're not harming others without consent you're fine.

Well clearly, but mental illness isn't something that can be controlled like that. It just simply isn't, people in that sort of condition have their mental state warped and altered by the illness and as such they cannot make the same rational choices that anyone else who is unaffected could.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:13:59 PM

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Mr. Psychologist · November 01, 2014, 03:17:13 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:13:59 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on November 01, 2014, 03:12:21 PM
Well clearly, but mental illness isn't something that can be controlled like that. It just simply isn't, people in that sort of condition have their mental state warped and altered by the illness and as such they cannot make the same rational choices that anyone else who is unaffected could.

I agree, and it's an unfortunate reality. I'm not sure what that has to do with liberty, though, and the right to life.

Well the reason the two are related is because in order for them to get better and to be able to actually live a fulfulling life they need treatment, in some cases it is necessary to carry out a section on them which deprives their liberty to an extent for a duration of time and then it's re-evaluated by a court and doctors as to whether it is still needed or not <.<

If not, they are let out and placed into community care until such a time as they are no longer unwell <.<

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:20:01 PM

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Mr. Psychologist · November 01, 2014, 03:23:22 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:20:01 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on November 01, 2014, 03:17:13 PM
in some cases it is necessary to carry out a section on them which deprives their liberty

That I will never agree with, nor does anyone have such authority.

*sigh*

Well then I have to say it's a good thing such decisions aren't down to you. But I can see this is going nowhere, so I'll leave you be.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:26:01 PM

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The Lord Slide Rule · November 01, 2014, 03:33:33 PM

It's not tyranny when an individual does not possess the psychological stability to actually make their own choices.

It's not freewill when an individual's mental state causes them to take their own life.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:42:11 PM

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The Lord Slide Rule · November 01, 2014, 03:46:34 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:42:11 PM

Quote from: SexyPiranha on November 01, 2014, 03:33:33 PM
It's not freewill when an individual's mental state causes them to take their own life.

You could argue that is the strongest freedom there is.

When that choice is made by an individual of sound mental state.

However in reality it is demonstrably true that most people that take their own lives are in fact not of sound mental state.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:47:09 PM

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More Than Mortal · November 01, 2014, 03:47:29 PM

Quote from: SexyPiranha on November 01, 2014, 03:33:33 PM

It's not freewill when an individual's mental state causes them to take their own life.

>free will
>existing

Pick one.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:47:57 PM

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More Than Mortal · November 01, 2014, 03:49:21 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:47:57 PM

I've yet to hear good reason as to how that matters.

That's like saying a schizophrenic person should be held intellectually responsible.

The Lord Slide Rule · November 01, 2014, 03:49:28 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on November 01, 2014, 03:47:29 PM

Quote from: SexyPiranha on November 01, 2014, 03:33:33 PM
It's not freewill when an individual's mental state causes them to take their own life.
>free will
>existing

Pick one.

I'm arguing with a libertarian here. I figured I'd just allow him that.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:49:57 PM

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Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:50:25 PM

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More Than Mortal · November 01, 2014, 03:51:37 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:49:57 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on November 01, 2014, 03:49:21 PM
Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:47:57 PM
I've yet to hear good reason as to how that matters.
That's like saying a schizophrenic person should be held intellectually responsible.

Why shouldn't they? Just as much as a drunk.

Because a drunk person claiming to be the King of Denmark is being an idiot as a result of his choices. A schizophrenic person invariably and actually believes they are the king of Denmark.

If you want me to regress further, it's like expecting children to be legally responsible in the choices they make. You can't call a schizophrenic dumb for the statements they espouse, because their perception is so warped as to stop making sense. That's the point of classifying people as insane in the first place.

The Lord Slide Rule · November 01, 2014, 03:52:02 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:50:25 PM

Quote from: SexyPiranha on November 01, 2014, 03:49:28 PM
I'm arguing with a libertarian here. I figured I'd just allow him that.

I don't label myself libertarian.

Well whatever you are, you profess a lot of views shared by libertarians.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 03:54:07 PM

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More Than Mortal · November 01, 2014, 03:58:19 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 03:54:07 PM

I don't see why the difference matters, and it may not be the drunk person's "choice." They may be physically addicted to alcohol.

In that case they're mentally ill. That's what addiction is, and you can't hold people responsible for something they do resulting out of a fault in their perception. It's certainly more diffuse with alcoholics, since they are in control of their faculties but motivated by an anomaly, much like psychopaths, and have made the conscious, rational choice to consume that substance prior to the development of their illness in the knowledge that such was a possibility.

However, schizophrenics - and often depressives - aren't in proper control of their faculties. That's why we call schizophrenics psychotics and why schizophrenia translates as "split mind" - they aren't connected to reality. Such people can't exercise liberty. If you can defer responsibility for children to an authority, you can certainly do the same for the delusional.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 04:08:45 PM

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More Than Mortal · November 01, 2014, 04:27:28 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 04:08:45 PM

You can still hold them responsible for doing something wrong, otherwise disturbed people could murder whomever they wish and constantly get away with it.

Not being morally or criminally responsible doesn't entail a lack of consequences. . .

That's like saying we shouldn't put down rabid dogs because we can't hold them responsible.

Mr. Psychologist · November 01, 2014, 04:29:02 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 04:08:45 PM

You can still hold them responsible for doing something wrong, otherwise disturbed people could murder whomever they wish and constantly get away with it.

Obviously, but you don't hold them responsible in the same way as you would someone who is of sound mind.

Their 'punishment' is actually to get them sent to appropriate help to make them well enough so they don't randomly kill people, or if that's not possible then to keep them in a safe place where they cannot do harm to others.

Quote

That is when people ought to be restrained, and only WHEN proven to be irresponsible, which you'd still need to show someone is not mentally sound.

...Which is exactly what happens in a sectioning. They don't just grab them off the street willynilly .-.
If they are determined a danger to others, then the section is authorised and carried out to take them to a hospital for treatment. There has to be proof they are unwell, proof that they are dangerous and proof that they need treatment. This is then evaluated and acted upon <.<

Mr. Psychologist · November 01, 2014, 04:31:37 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 04:08:45 PM

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/beingsectionedengland.aspx

Have a read through this, I know it's for britbongistan but see what you make of it.
Are people's liberties being infringed by this system?

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 04:39:21 PM

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Camnator · November 01, 2014, 04:40:40 PM

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Camnator · November 01, 2014, 04:43:44 PM

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Mr. Psychologist · November 01, 2014, 04:46:26 PM

Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 04:43:44 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on November 01, 2014, 04:31:37 PM
Quote from: Camnator on November 01, 2014, 04:08:45 PM

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/beingsectionedengland.aspx

Have a read through this, I know it's for britbongistan but see what you make of it.
Are people's liberties being infringed by this system?

I think the subject of prisons is an entirely different matter. Trust me, I have my problems there as well even with just normal people prisons. Things should be drastically different than they are now. We could discuss the countless variables like drug and prostitution prohibition all day long. All I was concerned with here is that a free person causing harm to no one but themselves isn't deprived their due process of law.

Ah good, well yes this isn't just random deprivations of liberty <.<
I'm quite relieved.

Camnator · November 01, 2014, 04:50:30 PM

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