Cindo's Controversial Thread of the Week: Ethics in Gaming Journalism :^)

Oh my, is it already that time?

Well actually I usually post these on Thursdays so it was that time a couple of days ago, but...fuck off, it's that time again now.

Welcome, one and all, to Spooky Skeleton Cindo's thread of the week where I will attempt to post a topic on Serious that will actually generate conversation and that isn't about god damn fucking politics holy fucking shit this fucking board always fucking talks about politics god damn.

And don't bitch at me for writing a wall because, god dammit, that's what these threads are made for.

So what's the topic of this week's lovely thread? Well last week's was a bit of a bust - people weren't really opposed to anything that I was saying and that sort of ruins the fun of the thread, now doesn't it? So I thought long on hard on what topic to make this week's thread about until I finally arrived on an answer. This forum was founded from Bungie which was founded from gaming, right? So let's make a thread, I thought, about the type of thing that people on this website should get fucking FIRED UP about - sexism within the gaming industry.

Now, before I continue, let's establish one thing - I don't like Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian, but I also don't like those fuckwits over at /r/KotakuInAction or /r/Gamergate. The former is a group of people who overreact to pretty much everything that could possibly have harmful implications and the latter is a group of kissless virgin neckbeards who are angry that their sacred "gaming" culture is being invaded by people who they feel owe them sex.

So, anyways, onto the actual post -

The culture surrounding gaming and the development is sexist as a baseline and that's pretty much a fact. Say what you will about the continuing careers of Quinn, Sarkeesian, and Wu, but the initial "Gamergate" scandal was nothing more than a bunch of people harassing some girl based off of shit her ex-boyfriend lied about. Her game was abject shit, no denying that, but when an entire movement forms out of a claim with no base that some woman might be whoring herself out for money, it's pretty evident that there's a problem.

As for sexism within the games themselves, I'll say that things are getting much better. A large portion of the reason that said media appears as sexist is simply that it's appealing to what has, for the majority of it's lifetime, been the primary audience - straight white dudes. It makes sense that most of the women are busty, attractive girls that love wearing skimpy clothing and that most protagonists are the "generic white dude" that shows up in pretty much every game ever, but that doesn't mean that such things should continue as gaming becomes more popular for all involved. Naturally, all games don't need to cater to these things, but the culture should shift in that direction. The fact that so many games including women as playable characters is looked at as a "bonus" feature or something that the developers couldn't really spend time into is evidence of said problem.

HOWEVER, I think a key point is often missed in the fact that sexualization =/= objectification. Sure, if a female character's only purpose is to stand around and look hot, then that's just ridiculous, but a female character being sexualized isn't inherently wrong if there are also other aspects of her character. I always use League of Legends to argue this point only because there's a large portion of the fanbase that gets all up-in-arms about how sexualized all of the female champions are and how they all "show off too much skin" and have "unrealistic body proportions" - this, in my opinion, totally ignores the fact that there are plenty of champions and skins that have buff hotties with chiseled abs walking around next to the busty girls.

This post was kinda lower-effort than my last ones, but, oh well. Sue me. I wasn't as organized.

Also consider this a place to rant about the cesspool that is everything to do with Gamergate, because I love ranting about the cesspool that is everything to do with Gamergate.

If only Keyu were still here...

look, let me just play my games without all this ridiculous shit

HOWEVER, I think a key point is often missed in the fact that sexualization =/= objectification. Sure, if a female character's only purpose is to stand around and look hot, then that's just ridiculous, but a female character being sexualized isn't inherently wrong if there are also other aspects of her character. I always use League of Legends to argue this point only because there's a large portion of the fanbase that gets all up-in-arms about how sexualized all of the female champions are and how they all "show off too much skin" and have "unrealistic body proportions" - this, in my opinion, totally ignores the fact that there are plenty of champions and skins that have buff hotties with chiseled abs walking around next to the busty girls.

My problem isn't sexualization as much as it's over-sexualization. If being sexy is part of a character's general theme, then fine. What the fuck ever. But when you have s series where almost all the girls are treated as sex symbols (or sex objects), then that's where I take umbrage. Take basically any fighting game ever. None of the girls can just look normal--they always have to be ridiculously over-sexualized, and it's completely unnecessary.

You talk about how these people tend to ignore that males tend to be sexualized as well--well, I don't. Male sexualization is a problem, too. The fact that male sexualization persists doesn't make sexualization okay--because two wrongs don't make a right, and all that. It's only an exacerbation of the problem. Trouble is, males aren't sexualized nearly as much as women are--that's just a fact. So I view it as a lesser issue.

The most unfortunate thing about discussing this subject with people is that we all tend to agree on a few things--objectifying people is a bad thing. Over-sexualization is probably not a good thing. We can all agree on these things, but where we fundamentally differ is how we define "over-sexualization". We all have different standards. The lines we draw in the sand are on opposite ends of the beach.

I have very stringent standards. I'm concerned not only with character design, but character role. I'm concerned with things like how the character is treated in the story. Does the camera pan all over her body so you can take a glimpse at every little fucking incline of her curvature? Does she have an oh-so-hlarious scene where someone walks straight into her breasts? Is her dialogue sexually suggestive in any way?

all these things and more, i take into consideration--it's just not design

from these things, it becomes more and more possible to glean a character's intent

can she have good character traits? absolutely
but that doesn't really ever excuse the negative ones in my eyes

An abundance of sexualized female characters sends the message that the designers lack the creativity to illustrate women in any other way, and it also sends the message that male gamers are just too lecherous to care about any of the other positive character traits she might have. You can talk about how "good" of a character Bayonetta is--the average gamer isn't gonna give a fuck, because they're too distracted by how sexually attractive they made her.

Or at least, that's what developers seem to think.

It's insulting.

Gaming journalism


oh bohyyyyyyyaefdgzfhngtzbsgd

But no one really cares about gaming journalism

You can't really pin GG's origins on one single event that may or may not even happened though, and it'd be a bit ridiculous to try.

GG formed out of a melting pot of mendacious sleight of hand tactics within the gaming press and eventually culminated into a Franz Ferdinand-esque controversy.

Whether the zoepost was credible or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is gaming journalists and gaming devs should not, under any circumstances, be in bed together, both in the figurative and literal sense, as it would be a clear cut conflict of interest issue.

What was originally "Hey, this shouldn't really be happening. This chick's boyfriend has provided evidence as to what has allegedly occurred. Even if it isn't credible, we should at least be taking caveat with this kind of behaviour within games journalism as a whole" got construed as "HURR MUH SOGGY KNEE, YOU JUST HATING ON THE STRONK INDIEPENDANT WOMYN WHO CAN SLEEP WITH WHO SHE WANTS TO." It was just insufferable.

That combined with the ridiculous gaming articles declaring gamers 'dead' that were oh-so-obviously colluded contributed to the formation of GG. So before you talk shit about a consumer revolt which was being trashed by a gaming press that should have been sticking up for them, at least get the context and facts right.

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How is an attractive and (this is very important) feminine female character degrading?

Because they're more often treated as objects to ogle at, rather than human beings to intelligently interact with.

Both sides of Gamergate are complete ass wipes,  Both sides overreact to the smallest things and shun the unbelievers.  The media narrative surrounding Gamergate has been awful for many reasons. First off the media forgot the adage do not feed the trolls and poked a sleeping bear of the gaming community.  Boom now you have a controversy and games media decided to throw gas on the fire. Publicizing threats and giving Gamergate attention allowed trolls to use it as cover.  They did not cover that all types of people were getting abuse (on both sides) and only focused on those who fit their ideological mold. Overall the media created this mess by creating clickbait and employed guilt by association on a massive scale. Neutrals were attacked by both sides and people who said calm the fuck down to both sides had brigades of people harnessing them (Total Biscuit being a prime example of that).  Gamergate did however at least show the ugly side of the industry on both sides. Still as much as I hate them Gamergate they did manage to have a civil conversation on games journalism at SPJ AirPlay.  I also found new voices to listen to and although I may not agree them 100 percent they still can bring up valid points. People like Liana K (one of my favorite people covering games right now) and others have called out the bullshit on both sides, support them not hate on others.

GG is still going on?

Now, before I continue, let's establish one thing - I don't like Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian, but I also don't like those fuckwits over at /r/KotakuInAction or /r/Gamergate. The former is a group of people who overreact to pretty much everything that could possibly have harmful implications and the latter is a group of kissless virgin neckbeards who are angry that their sacred "gaming" culture is being invaded by people who they feel owe them sex.

So, anyways, onto the actual post

Also, you want to show us some good examples that show the prevalence of this mindset in those communities before you throw them under the bus and shame them? As far as I know those sub-reddits aren't doing anything wrong and for the most part exist to call out agenda pushing and dishonest shit in gaming publications.

if a female character's only purpose is to stand around and look hot, then that's just ridiculous,

Ohhhhhh myyyyyyyy

What if she has a strong personality and I want to blow my load into her bum?

https://archive.is/SU943
Just look at all that misogyny. This is what #gamergaters #support


Non-sarcastic reminder that Michael Brutsch did nothing wrong and Adrian Chen is a piece of shit.

Actually it's about ethics in video game journalism.

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if a female character's only purpose is to stand around and look hot, then that's just ridiculous,

Ohhhhhh myyyyyyyy

Metal Gear is weird and from my understanding Quiet is an interesting character with agency. She is not a damsel in distress and besides you can get alternative outfits that cover her up. Does not one Metal Gear game make you run around naked as the protagonist or something for a section? Metal Gear is weird and Japan in general has a different set of guidelines surrounding sexuality than the west.

Perhaps if games media did not constantly make click bait titles or scream any ist at the popular game of the day things would get better.  The Anita Sarkisian worship that happens in some gaming circles is harmful. They reduce actual criticism of her work to harassment and this does not allow other feminist voices to even talk about games. Make no mistake the followers of Anita (or any e celeb) can be asshats just because the person they follow is fighting for the greater good does not mean their followers are righteous. The opposition to Gamer Gate is just as bad with lines of thinking such as no bad tactics, only bad targets and you are either with us or you are not real. It is just a giant clusterfuck and a flamewar that has grown way out of control. Best thing to do is let both sides die down and support who you want.

if a female character's only purpose is to stand around and look hot, then that's just ridiculous,

Ohhhhhh myyyyyyyy

Metal Gear is weird and from my understanding Quiet is an interesting character with agency. She is not a damsel in distress and besides you can get alternative outfits that cover her up. Does not one Metal Gear game make you run around naked as the protagonist or something for a section? Metal Gear is weird and Japan in general has a different set of guidelines surrounding sexuality than the west.

I was just trying to trigger someone hue

I'll respond to a bunch of shit in a minute.

I'm being lazy right now, so I'll get back to you guys

I tend to avoid video game journalism because it's rife with corruption, even before this whole shindig broke out. I'm talking false advertisement, paid reviews, undisclosed sponsors, that sorta thing.

It was the straw that broke the camel's back, and in an effort to quell legitimate claims of biased reviews (not just quinn's or whoever), it was all swept under by sweeping generalisations that most gamers are sexist, or fuelling the sexism in the game industry.

Now this drawed pretty much everyone mildly invested; the media, feminists and gamers. The result? Feminists got mad, gamers got mad, and journalists made money selling the twisted stories of either side to each other.

Both sides have perfectly reasonable arguments, but when they start pulling evidence such as GTA I shake my head. (Wish I could give examples of mis-info and bias on the other side, but I didn't read into it much and mostly subscribe to social media that supports the other side, which I'm aware of. Fill me in here).

And still, gaming journalism is by and large corrupt, some games are still produced with sexist undertones and literally fuck-all else was done to tackle either problem. I think the only benefit was that the majority were made aware of it, which while has caused pointless conflict, will at least let consumers re-think before blindly following a reviewer or supporting a game that indirectly or otherwise features sexism.

A feminist wrote an article for our college newspaper, and my cousin wrote a critique of it.

Does the name "Anita Sarkeesian" mean anything to anybody? I guess she visited our campus.

Does the name "Anita Sarkeesian" mean anything to anybody? I guess she visited our campus.

Is that your cousin's critique or do you not know how well known the biggest opponent of men's rights in popular media is?

Never got into gamer gate

Don't understand it

Does the name "Anita Sarkeesian" mean anything to anybody? I guess she visited our campus.

Is that your cousin's critique or do you not know how well known the biggest opponent of men's rights in popular media is?

I didn't recognize the name, but I looked her up and now I remember who she is.

Her voice is annoying.

I'll respond to a bunch of shit in a minute.

I'm being lazy right now, so I'll get back to you guys