Can you justify/explain/prove your religious beliefs?

 
Elai
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OP, convince me that the core of Germanic paganism isn't right and that there aren't 9 known multiverses tied together by what the unknowing ancient Europeans called the world tree or Yggdrasil.

That isn't what I want to do in my thread.

Make your own thread if you wish to discuss proving negatives.


 
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There's so many things I've seen and heard that just make me think there must be a God out there. Maybe my particular Catholic beliefs aren't correct, but I'm 99% sure God is out there.

How are you sure? Because if you're sure, than I want to be sure, too.

But so far, no one has given me any evidence that would make me "sure" there's a God. It's just people being raised religiously that gives them a natural inclination towards a diety that makes them sure one exists. Think about it, if you weren't raised religiously, you would have no notion of God and wouldn't even be trying to defend your beliefs because, well, you wouldn't have any.


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There's so many things I've seen and heard that just make me think there must be a God out there. Maybe my particular Catholic beliefs aren't correct, but I'm 99% sure God is out there.

How are you sure? Because if you're sure, than I want to be sure, too.

But so far, no one has given me any evidence that would make me "sure" there's a God. It's just people being raised religiously that gives them a natural inclination towards a diety that makes them sure one exists. Think about it, if you weren't raised religiously, you would have no notion of God and wouldn't even be trying to defend your beliefs because, well, you wouldn't have any.
You're very right. If I wasn't raised in a religious home, chances are good I wouldn't believe in God. Thankfully, I was. If you weren't, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure you'd say it's a good thing, but you know what they say about opinions. Anyway, back to the other question. I'm sure because I've witnessed firsthand the power that prayer has. Of course, maybe that's all chance. I'm not the one to say. I just feel that prayer has swayed what would have happened, had God not been involved.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
OP, convince me that the core of Germanic paganism isn't right and that there aren't 9 known multiverses tied together by what the unknowing ancient Europeans called the world tree or Yggdrasil.

That isn't what I want to do in my thread.

Make your own thread if you wish to discuss proving negatives.
If you can't disprove it, then why does it need justification?


 
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There's so many things I've seen and heard that just make me think there must be a God out there. Maybe my particular Catholic beliefs aren't correct, but I'm 99% sure God is out there.

How are you sure? Because if you're sure, than I want to be sure, too.

But so far, no one has given me any evidence that would make me "sure" there's a God. It's just people being raised religiously that gives them a natural inclination towards a diety that makes them sure one exists. Think about it, if you weren't raised religiously, you would have no notion of God and wouldn't even be trying to defend your beliefs because, well, you wouldn't have any.
You're very right. If I wasn't raised in a religious home, chances are good I wouldn't believe in God. Thankfully, I was. If you weren't, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure you'd say it's a good thing, but you know what they say about opinions. Anyway, back to the other question. I'm sure because I've witnessed firsthand the power that prayer has. Of course, maybe that's all chance. I'm not the one to say. I just feel that prayer has swayed what would have happened, had God not been involved.

I was raised religiously, though. Why was it okay for God to show you how he exists through prayer but not me?

It just doesn't add up to me. There are too many inconsistencies, division and severe lack of empirical evidence for me to even consider religion a worthwhile philosophy. I wish I could be religious, but it's not like I can just "Choose to believe", belief isn't a choice.


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"flaming nipple chops"-Your host, the man they call Ghost.

To say, 'nothing is true', is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say, 'everything is permitted', is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
That's retarded. That isn't the intervention of god, that is me giving you a million dollars to prove a point.
Y'know, there's this old joke that goes like this.
Spoiler
An elderly lady was well known for her faith and for her boldness and talking about it. She would stand on her front porch and shout, "Praise the Lord!"
Next door to her lived an atheist who would get so angry at her proclamations he would shout, "There ain't no Lord!!"
Hard times set in on the elderly lady and she prayed for God to send her some assistance. She stood on her porch and shouted, "Praise the Lord!! God, I need FOOD!! I am having a hard time. Please, Lord, send me some groceries!!"
The next morning, the lady went out on her porch and saw a large bag of groceries and shouted, "Praise the Lord!!"
The neighbor jumped from behind a bush and said, "Ha Ha!! I told you there was no Lord. I bought those groceries. God didn't."
The lady started jumping up and down and clapping her hands and saying, "PRAISE THE LORD!!! He not only sent me groceries, but He made the devil pay for them!!"

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base·less
ˈbāsləs/
adjective
1.
without foundation in fact.
"baseless allegations"
Foundation in fact =/= proof. It's more comparable to a hypothesis that cannot be tested.

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That literally makes no sense.
If someone says "All pieces of chocolate are brown." because all they've ever seen is brown chocolate, they are justified in their understanding of chocolate's colour. But as soon as I show them a piece of white chocolate, they should conceit that they were wrong, and that not ALL chocolate is brown. You are seriously trying to justify intentional ignorance which is just another phrase for stupidity. If someone shows you the evidence that contradicts your prior understanding, and you still support your prior understanding, you are daft.
Neutrality not canceling out or adding to negatives is not the same as your chocolate metaphor. What you're saying would require for all Muslims to be violent and harassing all the time, which wasn't what the hypothetical was. Muslims acting neutral isn't the same as white chocolate, because those Muslims might still be violent and harassing but simply not acting that way right then.

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Interpretation means fuck all, I'm looking for factual information.
You're interpreting factual information as of value and interpretations of events as of no value.

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I'm not claiming that "living a different life than mine" is illogical. I'm claiming that believing anything without evidence is illogical.
You're looking for repeatable tests, in a sense as evidence, right? That cannot be done here. The so called evidence cannot be repeated because you cannot replicate all the factors.

What else would you want, eye-witness accounts of what people say they experienced? Those have shown to be unreliable in regards to what really might have happened. Telling someone that what they experienced that strengthened or weakened their belief in god was only their interpretation of what they experienced isn't going to change them, they're going to stay with what they have because it works for them.

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1) You can't prove a negative.
2) Where's your evidence that the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist? Do you believe in her until proven that she DOESN'T exist? (Although in this case, there is more evidence of Nessie than God.)
3) I believe it was Meta who made a thread about how a lack of evidence for God is evidence that he doesn't exist. But yeah, a lack of evidence for God is evidence that he doesn't exist.
But you more or less said that "If you've only had support for god in your life, then you are justified in your belief that god exists. But as soon as I "show you the evidence", and you don't change your beliefs, we have a problem." If you don't have proof that contradicts the belief that god exists, then what was your point?

Pretty sure they've done various expeditions and there's been absolutely no evidence supporting Nessie exists, but okay. The picture of a log doesn't count.

That doesn't make sense. How does absence of X equal presence of Y?


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There's so many things I've seen and heard that just make me think there must be a God out there. Maybe my particular Catholic beliefs aren't correct, but I'm 99% sure God is out there.

How are you sure? Because if you're sure, than I want to be sure, too.

But so far, no one has given me any evidence that would make me "sure" there's a God. It's just people being raised religiously that gives them a natural inclination towards a diety that makes them sure one exists. Think about it, if you weren't raised religiously, you would have no notion of God and wouldn't even be trying to defend your beliefs because, well, you wouldn't have any.
You're very right. If I wasn't raised in a religious home, chances are good I wouldn't believe in God. Thankfully, I was. If you weren't, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure you'd say it's a good thing, but you know what they say about opinions. Anyway, back to the other question. I'm sure because I've witnessed firsthand the power that prayer has. Of course, maybe that's all chance. I'm not the one to say. I just feel that prayer has swayed what would have happened, had God not been involved.

I was raised religiously, though. Why was it okay for God to show you how he exists through prayer but not me?

It just doesn't add up to me. There are too many inconsistencies, division and severe lack of empirical evidence for me to even consider religion a worthwhile philosophy. I wish I could be religious, but it's not like I can just "Choose to believe", belief isn't a choice.
Very true. It's not a choice. It's very different from being gay. (Yes, I did say that to rustle jimmies)


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.

You know damn well why.
Well it's a rather logical hypothesis assuming that black holes function as the roots and branches of the "tree".


 
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Y'know, there's this old joke that goes like this.
If God can "control" or work through me, that would mean he has power to control people and events in the earthly world, which we know isn't true.



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Neutrality not canceling out or adding to negatives is not the same as your chocolate metaphor. What you're saying would require for all Muslims to be violent and harassing all the time, which wasn't what the hypothetical was.
The metaphor you brought up was that one would be justified in believing all muslims to be violent or evil if they had only been experienced to violent and evil muslims.

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Muslims acting neutral isn't the same as white chocolate, because those Muslims might still be violent and harassing but simply not acting that way right then.
It is the same as white chocolate, because while brown chocolate still exists (violent muslims), the white chocolate also exists, which contradicts the person understanding that "all chocolate is brown". If there are neutral muslims, then all muslims are not violent and evil.

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You're interpreting factual information as of value and interpretations of events as of no value.
That's because they really don't have any value.

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You're looking for repeatable tests, in a sense as evidence, right? That cannot be done here. The so called evidence cannot be repeated because you cannot replicate all the factors.
So then why should I believe you? If God can only prove himself to you, but not to me, it serves no purpose to the argument. I'm looking for you to justify/explain/prove your beliefs to me.

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What else would you want, eye-witness accounts of what people say they experienced? Those have shown to be unreliable in regards to what really might have happened.

This is exactly right.

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But you more or less said that "If you've only had support for god in your life, then you are justified in your belief that god exists. But as soon as I "show you the evidence", and you don't change your beliefs, we have a problem." If you don't have proof that contradicts the belief that god exists, then what was your point?
I don't have proof that god doesn't exist, no, because you cannot prove a negative. What I can do is show you the overwhelming evidence that straight up contradicts things written in any religion, not just the Judeo-Christian religion.

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Pretty sure they've done various expeditions and there's been absolutely no evidence supporting Nessie exists, but okay. The picture of a log doesn't count.
But there's no evidence that Nessie DOESN'T exist, right? Why are you okay with saying that Nessie doesn't exist because of the lack of evidence but when you bring God into it under the same principles it's suddenly my job to prove the negative?

"Pretty sure they've done various experiments and tests and there's been absolutely no evidence supporting that God exists, but okay. The bible doesn't count."

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That doesn't make sense. How does absence of X equal presence of Y?
Exactly.


 
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You know damn well why.
Well it's a rather logical hypothesis assuming that black holes function as the roots and branches of the "tree".

That may very well be but any way you slice it, you're just forming reality to fit the belief. Black holes are not roots or branches, they are black holes.

It's like when people counter-argue the "God created the universe in 7 days" by saying "God's days are probably longer".


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
It's like when people counter-argue the "God created the universe in 7 days" by saying "God's days are probably longer".
six days, actually.
But why would anyone even make that argument? An omnipotent being would be able to make everything in the time frame he so desires, unless we're bringing God down to a level where he is bound by the universe's own laws.


 
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It's like when people counter-argue the "God created the universe in 7 days" by saying "God's days are probably longer".
six days, actually.
But why would anyone even make that argument? An omnipotent being would be able to make everything in the time frame he so desires, unless we're bringing God down to a level where he is bound by the universe's own laws.
Whatever. My Old Testament isn't the best.

Considering we know the universe to be older than 6 thousand years (which is approx. how old the universe would be according to the bible), people have to rationalise the genesis story to fit what we know about science today to be true (evolution, universe's age, etc.)


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"flaming nipple chops"-Your host, the man they call Ghost.

To say, 'nothing is true', is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say, 'everything is permitted', is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
If God can "control" or work through me, that would mean he has power to control people and events in the earthly world, which we know isn't true.
Well, it all really just depends on how you look at things. Who's to say that God didn't create the whole universe and everything to fold out exactly as it has so that you choosing to do what you did fated you to what happened? You weren't forced to do it, you chose to, and that was the inevitable consequence. Think like Greek mythology and how fate tends to work there.

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The metaphor you brought up was that one would be justified in believing all muslims to be violent or evil if they had only been experienced to violent and evil muslims.
Correct, but being violent and harassing isn't something that is necessarily always what the possessor of those traits is. I mean, I suppose there theoretically is a way one can violently and harassingly shop for groceries or brush their teeth, but I don't see that realistically.

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It is the same as white chocolate, because while brown chocolate still exists (violent muslims), the white chocolate also exists, which contradicts the person understanding that "all chocolate is brown". If there are neutral muslims, then all muslims are not violent and evil.
Being neutral like being violent and harassing(I never said evil) is an act, a (momentary) state of being. However, ones appearance can be judged by how they most commonly act. If they are predominantly violent, then despite them not being violent occasionally, they will be identified as violent. If anything could be taken from it, then it would more like the chocolate can sometimes have a streak of white, but that doesn't make the chocolate white on the whole.

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You're interpreting factual information as of value and interpretations of events as of no value.
That's because they really don't have any value.

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So then why should I believe you? If God can only prove himself to you, but not to me, it serves no purpose to the argument. I'm looking for you to justify/explain/prove your beliefs to me.
That's not what I said, I said that how God gave evidence of himself to someone cannot be replicated as that evidence worked because of that time, place, emotional status, person's history, personality, etc. that it was given. It doesn't apply to other situations, it's not a blanket evidence, it works when and how it was given to who it was given.

You wanted to know how can people justify their religious beliefs, I'm trying to explain how people can reach those beliefs that they feel justified in.

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I don't have proof that god doesn't exist, no, because you cannot prove a negative. What I can do is show you the overwhelming evidence that straight up contradicts things written in any religion, not just the Judeo-Christian religion.
Then you have evidence against the basis of the faith, which comes before the faith being strengthened. Let's hear some.

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But there's no evidence that Nessie DOESN'T exist, right? Why are you okay with saying that Nessie doesn't exist because of the lack of evidence but when you bring God into it under the same principles it's suddenly my job to prove the negative?
Well, there's no documented mythical sea monsters really existing, there's been numerous fakes, there really isn't a sustainable food source in the Loch for a creature that size, and Plesiosaurs died out 66 million years ago. So, there's all that.

Uh, because you said you had proof of white chocolate(God doesn't exist).
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"Pretty sure they've done various experiments and tests and there's been absolutely no evidence supporting that God exists, but okay. The bible doesn't count."
Difference is that it's a lot easier to scientifically analyze a loch and say that a Plesiosaur couldn't be surviving there due to various reasons, than say that we've searched for God where he's supposed to be and couldn't find him so he can't be there and so can't be real. Unfortunately, no God is not claimed to exist hovering in the sky where we can just look up there for him and conclude whether he is or isn't real by that.

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Exactly.
Exactly what? That doesn't answer anything.


 
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Well, it all really just depends on how you look at things.
Here's where logic comes into play.
If God has the ability to interfere with earthly people and situations, he is evil and lazy. If he really loves us, than he wouldn't have led me on the path to being an atheist. You claim to believe because of divine intervention, so he saved you essentially, but he hasn't done the same for me, which means that he's damning me to hell because he didn't supply enough evidence.

If he can't interfere with earthly people and situations, then you're justification for believing in him at all is thrown through the window.

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Correct, but being violent and harassing isn't something that is necessarily always what the possessor of those traits is. I mean, I suppose there theoretically is a way one can violently and harassingly shop for groceries or brush their teeth, but I don't see that realistically.
Okay? I agree with you on that, I just don't see it's relevance.

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Being neutral like being violent and harassing(I never said evil) is an act, a (momentary) state of being. However, ones appearance can be judged by how they most commonly act.
Of course. But if someone usually acts like an asshole, but is sometimes nice, they aren't 100% asshole.

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If they are predominantly violent, then despite them not being violent occasionally, they will be identified as violent. If anything could be taken from it, then it would more like the chocolate can sometimes have a streak of white, but that doesn't make the chocolate white on the whole.
I feel like this whole part of our discussion is just going to places that aren't relevant. So what if people are identified as violent?

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That's not what I said, I said that how God gave evidence of himself to someone cannot be replicated as that evidence worked because of that time, place, emotional status, person's history, personality, etc. that it was given. It doesn't apply to other situations, it's not a blanket evidence, it works when and how it was given to who it was given.
Then why doesn't your God supply me with the same evidence he's given this person? He essentially just proved himself to that person, which takes away any choice the person witnessing has from believing in God. Why can't he do the same for me?

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Then you have evidence against the basis of the faith, which comes before the faith being strengthened. Let's hear some.
Evolution, the age of the earth/universe, contradictions between various books of the bible, morally ambiguous stories and laws, morally wrong stories and laws.

Really, all it takes is some critical thinking to understand how flawed the bible/basis of any religion is.

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Well, there's no documented mythical sea monsters really existing, there's been numerous fakes, there really isn't a sustainable food source in the Loch for a creature that size, and Plesiosaurs died out 66 million years ago. So, there's all that.
And there's all this that leads us to believe the bible is incorrect.
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Evolution, the age of the earth/universe, contradictions between various books of the bible, morally ambiguous stories and laws, morally wrong stories and laws.

There are numourous fakes in Christianity, depending on your denomination. The Protestant side of the religion is hopelessly divided on every little issue, it's absurd. You can't say they are all right.

But you can say they are all wrong.

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Uh, because you said you had proof of white chocolate(God doesn't exist).
I have never said I had proof that God didn't exist. I am saying there is no proof he does and there is no good reason we should believe he exists.

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Difference is that it's a lot easier to scientifically analyze a loch and say that a Plesiosaur couldn't be surviving there due to various reasons, than say that we've searched for God where he's supposed to be and couldn't find him so he can't be there and so can't be real.
It's the exact same thing. We've searched for God in creation, he isn't there. We've searched for God in our hearts, he isn't there. If there was some evidence that God did exist, than everyone would accept that and there would be no debate. But there is no evidence, so there is no good reason to believe he does.

Atheism isn't a belief, it's a response to a claim.

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Exactly.
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Exactly what? That doesn't answer anything.

You said "absence of X is proof of Y". X being evidence and Y being God doesn't exist.

If there is no X(evidence), that is proof of Y(That there is no God).
Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 03:41:46 PM by [Raiden] Snake


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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
I'd like to interject that basing the existence (or lack thereof) of a deity on the basis of how the Christian Bible portrays him doesn't offer a point against a deity, only against the interpretation of the Christian God.


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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
I fluctuate between a theistic and atheistic view often; not based on any texts, or a gut feeling of belief, but rather what makes for a more exciting narrative at the time.


 
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I'd like to interject that basing the existence (or lack thereof) of a deity on the basis of how the Christian Bible portrays him doesn't offer a point against a deity, only against the interpretation of the Christian God.

I was only arguing against the Christian God in this context because I assume Assassin to be Christian, thus it's more relevant. I could just as easily argue against Vishnu or Allah.

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I fluctuate between a theistic and atheistic view often; not based on any texts, or a gut feeling of belief, but rather what makes for a more exciting narrative at the time.

So basically, whatever causes the most shit XD


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"flaming nipple chops"-Your host, the man they call Ghost.

To say, 'nothing is true', is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say, 'everything is permitted', is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
Here's where logic comes into play.
If God has the ability to interfere with earthly people and situations, he is evil and lazy. If he really loves us, than he wouldn't have led me on the path to being an atheist. You claim to believe because of divine intervention, so he saved you essentially, but he hasn't done the same for me, which means that he's damning me to hell because he didn't supply enough evidence.
And you are in a position to judge a being infinitely wiser than you, and who has a full picture of the universe and what's best for it, because? Who's to say that you being on the path of atheist is a bad thing? Saved? I'm sorry when did I say anything about Hell, damnation, saving, Jesus Christ or any of that stuff?

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Of course. But if someone usually acts like an asshole, but is sometimes nice, they aren't 100% asshole.
True, but they are still an asshole because that's what the majority trait is.

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I feel like this whole part of our discussion is just going to places that aren't relevant. So what if people are identified as violent?
Well, it was about how people are shaped to believe things based on what they experience in life, and that a neutral-acting character of the group that the person has only encountered negative-acting characters does not change their mind from thinking that all characters of that group are majority negative-acting. Point being, more or less, it would seem to take a lot to change a lot; even for radical beliefs.

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Then why doesn't your God supply me with the same evidence he's given this person? He essentially just proved himself to that person, which takes away any choice the person witnessing has from believing in God. Why can't he do the same for me?
I'd like to clarify, this isn't God coming down bathed in golden light saying, "Sup browski, wanna hang out?". There isn't any forcing or removing the person's choice from the equation. It's the person choosing to attribute the evidence/event to God. Where you saw it as just someone randomly handing out a million dollars, somebody else might attribute the act to happening because of something greater(God).

You seem to think it is being forced by God, through some manner, to start believing in God's existence, when the more reasonable answer would be that it's a different perspective of looking at things. Expecting to have some grand moment of realization where God makes you change will only guarantee that you stay the same, because you need to actively choose to start believing something.

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Evolution, the age of the earth/universe,
Evolution is evidence against the faith of the Bible if you were to believe it word-for-word, perhaps. However, that's not how the Old Testament was written to read as(like most mythologies); the beginning of Genesis is a poem, it is not meant as a pure historical record. That goes for your age argument too.

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contradictions between various books of the bible, morally ambiguous stories and laws, morally wrong stories and laws.
sigh, Okay post a few if you want, but I've personally corrected over a dozen before and have yet to encounter a single one that cannot be reasoned about. When Christ died on the cross the Old Law(Leveticus and such) had been fulfilled now that the messiah had sacrificed himself, so that stuff was okay. Bashing babies/genocide one? Yeah, that was the Israelite peoples thoughts and resolve after having their cities brutally massacred and taken over by another nation that then took many prisoner/slaves. Reasoning for not eating pig or scallops or wearing things/tattoos/piercings? Diseases and allergies to things, so taught to be avoided; wearing things & tattoos/piercings were said to be things other nations/religions did so those were to be avoided to keep people together in their nation.

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There are numourous fakes in Christianity, depending on your denomination. The Protestant side of the religion is hopelessly divided on every little issue, it's absurd. You can't say they are all right.

But you can say they are all wrong.
Yeah, spreading an idea across the world that requires a level of interpretation tends to result in lots of alterations among different cultural groups.

Why are we getting so much into Christianity?

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It's the exact same thing. We've searched for God in creation, he isn't there. We've searched for God in our hearts, he isn't there. If there was some evidence that God did exist, than everyone would accept that and there would be no debate. But there is no evidence, so there is no good reason to believe he does.
One can obviously tell you searching for the creator of a bench inside the bench itself is a poor idea. Not finding God in your heart would be a personal problem, there's plenty of people that said they have.

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You said "absence of X is proof of Y". X being evidence and Y being God doesn't exist.

If there is no X(evidence), that is proof of Y(That there is no God).
I said:
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That doesn't make sense. How does absence of X equal presence of Y?


🍁 Aria 🔮 | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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His eyebrows sparkling, his white beard hangs down to his chest. The thatched mats, spread outside his chise, spread softly, his splendid attos. He polishes, cross-legged, his makiri, with his eyes completely absorbed.

He is Ainu.

The god of Ainu Mosir, Ae-Oine Kamuy, descendant of Okiku-Rumi, He perishes, a living corpse. The summers day, the white sunlight, unabrushed, ends simply through his breath alone.
I fluctuate between a theistic and atheistic view often; not based on any texts, or a gut feeling of belief, but rather what makes for a more exciting narrative at the time.

So basically, whatever causes the most shit XD
No, internally. Sometimes thinking that the universe is nothing more than a sprawling "chaos" rather than the cause of intelligent design is really exciting; others, it's a powerful thought to believe that every action you make has consequence, eternally.

This is actually the first time I've really mentioned my beliefs in a long time, it's just something that should be personally held and not a significant part of you as a person. Outside of myself, though, religion is a really exciting thing to study. It's integral to most cultures, so it's almost like you're going back in time reading the texts.
Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 05:51:06 PM by Prime Meridia


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god is real because I saw an angle


 
Elai
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And you are in a position to judge a being infinitely wiser than you, and who has a full picture of the universe and what's best for it, because?
Because his existence is unlikely.

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Who's to say that you being on the path of atheist is a bad thing? Saved? I'm sorry when did I say anything about Hell, damnation, saving, Jesus Christ or any of that stuff?
You didn't. I'm assuming you to be a Christian.


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I'd like to clarify, this isn't God coming down bathed in golden light saying, "Sup browski, wanna hang out?".
Obviously. But the degree to which God shows himself to you is irrelevant, he still showed himself to you.

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There isn't any forcing or removing the person's choice from the equation.
Yes, there is. By God "showing" himself to you (whatever that entails) he is removing the choice of believing in him or not by showing you that he does in fact exist. What kind of an idiot is going to say "God doesn't exist" after God showed him that he does exist?

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Where you saw it as just someone randomly handing out a million dollars, somebody else might attribute the act to happening because of something greater(God).
If God can control people to do things like that, it would mean that God has the power to interact with humanity on a physical level, which opens up to a whole bunch of issues. If that's your argument, I'm pretty sure I'll win, mate.

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You seem to think it is being forced by God, through some manner, to start believing in God's existence, when the more reasonable answer would be that it's a different perspective of looking at things.
So in other words, you need to have a predisposition to believing in God to believe in God?

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Expecting to have some grand moment of realization where God makes you change will only guarantee that you stay the same, because you need to actively choose to start believing something.
There is NO CHOICE involved with belief. You either believe something because it meets your standards of evidence, or you don't believe something because it doesn't meet your standards of evidence. There is no choice involved, that's a common misconception.

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Evolution is evidence against the faith of the Bible if you were to believe it word-for-word, perhaps. However, that's not how the Old Testament was written to read as(like most mythologies); the beginning of Genesis is a poem, it is not meant as a pure historical record.
If the book of Genesis isn't literal, there is no reason/way for Jesus Christ to wipe away sin, thus pushing the religion into irrelevancy.

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Bashing babies/genocide one? Yeah, that was the Israelite peoples thoughts and resolve after having their cities brutally massacred and taken over by another nation that then took many prisoner/slaves.
That makes it okay? No, it doesn't.


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Yeah, spreading an idea across the world that requires a level of interpretation tends to result in lots of alterations among different cultural groups.

Why are we getting so much into Christianity?
Because like I said, I assumed you were Christian. We can switch to another religion/belief if you want, but since the beginning of our conversation, you've avoided the entire point of the thread and forced me to play devil's advocate.

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Not finding God in your heart would be a personal problem, there's plenty of people that said they have.
They are delusional. The fact that I/atheists cannot find God in my/their heart means that no one finds God in their heart.

Why would God not be in my heart but be in yours?

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You said "absence of X is proof of Y". X being evidence and Y being God doesn't exist.

If there is no X(evidence), that is proof of Y(That there is no God).
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I said:
That doesn't make sense. How does absence of X equal presence of Y?

Those are the exact same.


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"flaming nipple chops"-Your host, the man they call Ghost.

To say, 'nothing is true', is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say, 'everything is permitted', is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic.
Because his existence is unlikely.
That doesn't really answer the question and we were assuming that his existence were real earlier.

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You didn't. I'm assuming you to be a Christian.
Don't assume such things then.

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If God can control people to do things like that, it would mean that God has the power to interact with humanity on a physical level, which opens up to a whole bunch of issues. If that's your argument, I'm pretty sure I'll win, mate.
Oh jeez, that's not the argument and you're twisting things around.

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So in other words, you need to have a predisposition to believing in God to believe in God?
If you call having to seek out answers for yourself and taking action to make things happen, rather than sit back and wait for the world to do whatever you want, a predisposition then yes. I mean, it's not like in any kind of change a person wants to have happen that person has to make the change happen instead of expecting it to happen on its own.

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There is NO CHOICE involved with belief. You either believe something because it meets your standards of evidence, or you don't believe something because it doesn't meet your standards of evidence. There is no choice involved, that's a common misconception.
And what's your evidence for this?

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If the book of Genesis isn't literal, there is no reason/way for Jesus Christ to wipe away sin, thus pushing the religion into irrelevancy.
Okay, now you're just being silly. Myth explains reason for things/relationship between things, but doesn't make it literal.

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That makes it okay? No, it doesn't.
I'm sorry, I take it you were there or have a profound understanding of the situation, the people involved, and the time it took place in? Life wasn't nice or pretty, especially in ancient times when philosophy hadn't really started off yet and neither had science too well. They did not have the benefits of knowledge and technology we do now, and with a violent and dangerous time existing and they were attacked their options would be accept your fate as victims and have your nation-culture die out, or get to fighting back against your enemies.

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Because like I said, I assumed you were Christian. We can switch to another religion/belief if you want, but since the beginning of our conversation, you've avoided the entire point of the thread and forced me to play devil's advocate.
I've been trying to explain to you how people can justify the beliefs they've grown into, that is what the title asked, my personal story shouldn't matter so much to you.

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They are delusional. The fact that I/atheists cannot find God in my/their heart means that no one finds God in their heart.

Why would God not be in my heart but be in yours?
Nice ultimatum, but claiming that because some people can't find inner peace nobody really can just sounds silly to say aloud.

Maybe because you don't know what you're looking for, or you're searching in the wrong places? I'm not you and I don't know enough about you to help you find inner peace, okay?

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Those are the exact same.
One is a question, the other is a statement.


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
Just going to throw out there, I disagree with Assassin on Genesis.

Like Snake said; if it's not taken literally then it's not really..........doing anything.
It's presence is almost pointless.


 
Elai
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Just going to throw out there, I disagree with Assassin on Genesis.

Like Snake said; if it's not taken literally then it's not really..........doing anything.
It's presence is almost pointless.

I'm basically done arguing with him... He keeps avoiding the questions or trying to guess my answers to his questions. This makes him change his statements to the point of incoherency to avoid "tripping up", essentially.

I mean, I have nothing against Assassin, I have positive feelings toward him from Bungie.net. I just don't think he's arguing as efficiently as you did in that other thread.