Black Students Benefit From A ‘Slower Track'

Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,120 posts
 
http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/12/09/3730166/scalia-affirmative-action-slower-track/

Quote
During oral arguments on a case that may eliminate race conscious affirmative action, Justice Antonin Scalia said that “most of the black scientists in this country do not come from the most advanced schools” and added that black students do better in a “slower track.”

Scalia also said students of color are being “pushed into schools that are too advanced for them” due to race conscious affirmative action policies.

Scalia was referring to an amicus brief filed in the Fisher v. University of Texas at Austin case, which involves a white woman who was denied admission to the university and claims that the college’s affirmative action policy is responsible. The specific brief in question was written by a conservative lawyer, Gail Heriot, who has previously argued against anti-discrimination policies in her position at the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.

There's more in the article. First of all, it's unfair of ThinkProgress to attribute these quotes to Scalia, since he was quoting a brief of another attorney. It appears he was using them as an argument, but the citations used here seem very cherrypicked.

Anyway, the point isn't shit on Scalia but to discuss the legitimacy of his claims. Is actually racist to say that black students (or any marginalized group) often benefit from a less rigorous curriculum, affirmative action can result in poor performance?  The people calling this racist are also the same people who would be quick to point out that poor black students typically underperform.
Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 11:46:45 AM by Have A Holly Jolly Turkey


 
challengerX
| custom title
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: challengerX
IP: Logged

42,282 posts
I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


 
Luciana
| Mythic Forum Ninja
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Luciana
IP: Logged

13,337 posts
 
I know what he's trying to say, but he worded it completely wrong and it came off as condescending. I've seen people on here present why Affirmative Action isn't the best thing around in better words.


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,120 posts
 
I know what he's trying to say, but he worded it completely wrong and it came off as condescending. I've seen people on here present why Affirmative Action isn't the best thing around in better words.

It's two sentences from an entire discussion, and they weren't even his words.


Anonymous (User Deleted) | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Kupo
IP: Logged

6,397 posts
 
bumping this

Jason Riley writing for WSJ ran a piece agreeing with Mr. Scalia and it's pretty good. Here are some excerpts (emphasis mine):
Quote
We live in a political environment where the intent of a policy aimed at helping minorities is all that matters; questioning the policy’s actual effectiveness is tantamount to racism. Our national debates about racial preferences tend to focus on their legality, not whether they work as intended.
Quote
An analysis of black students at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the mid-1980s found that they had scored in the top 10% nationally on the math portion of the SAT but in the bottom 10% among their classmates at MIT. As a result, black students were dropping out at much higher rates, and those who didn’t leave typically received lower grades than their white and Asian classmates. Affirmative action had turned some of the smartest kids in the country into failures, in a misguided effort to obtain some predetermined racial mix on the quad.
He name-drops Serious board-favorite Thomas Sowell in his closing arguments, so I figured some of you might want to read it. Got a paywall trying to link it so I've reproduced it below:

Spoiler
Scalia Was Right About Race Preferences
The debate about these college-admissions policies is too focused on their legality, not their efficacy.

By Jason L. Riley
Dec. 13, 2015 5:46 p.m. ET

With the regularity of Old Faithful, honest remarks on racial matters these days are followed by geysers of liberal indignation and outrage. That is what greeted Supreme Court Justice  Antonin Scalia’s suggestion last week that less-qualified black students might be better off at less-selective colleges.

During oral arguments in Fisher v. University of Texas at Austin, a case concerning race-conscious college admission policies, Justice Scalia cited research that shows how racial preferences can handicap some black students by placing them in elite schools where they don’t have the same credentials of the average student and struggle academically. 

“There are those who contend that it does not benefit African-Americans to get them into the University of Texas where they do not do well, as opposed to having them go to a less-advanced school—a slower-track school where they do well,” said Justice Scalia. “I don’t think it stands to reason that it’s a good thing for the University of Texas to admit as many blacks as possible.”

Liberal public figures and media types promptly denounced the remarks. Democratic leader  Harry Reid, ever the statesman, stood on the Senate floor Thursday and accused Justice Scalia of endorsing “racist theories.”

We live in a political environment where the intent of a policy aimed at helping minorities is all that matters; questioning the policy’s actual effectiveness is tantamount to racism. Our national debates about racial preferences tend to focus on their legality, not whether they work as intended. Yet both are important, and Justice Scalia is right to question the assumption that racial favoritism in college admissions has been a boon for blacks.

A 2012 book, “Mismatch,” by UCLA law professor  Richard Sander and legal journalist  Stuart Taylor Jr., illustrates why Justice Scalia’s concerns are warranted, and the book has helped revitalize the discussion over affirmative action’s efficacy. But it is worth noting that such concerns have been voiced by conservative and liberal scholars alike and are as old as the policies themselves, which date to the late 1960s.

Nearly 50 years ago,  Clyde Summers, a professor at Yale Law School and longtime critic of labor-union discrimination against blacks, explained how preferential admissions policies at elite law schools like his own damaged the educational prospects for black students not only at Yale but also at less-selective schools. When a top-tier school like Duke lowered the admissions criteria for a minority student who met the normal admissions standards for a second-tier school like North Carolina, he noted, the latter institution was left with a smaller pool of qualified applicants and forced to begin admitting students who would be a better fit for a third-tier school, and so on.

“In sum,” wrote Summers (who died in 2010), “the policy of preferential admission has a pervasive shifting effect, causing large numbers of minority students to attend law schools whose normal admission standards they do not meet, instead of attending other law schools whose normal standards they do meet.”

For decades, diversity-obsessed college administrators have tried to conceal information on admissions and student outcomes broken down by race, but the data that have become public is devastating. An analysis of black students at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the mid-1980s found that they had scored in the top 10% nationally on the math portion of the SAT but in the bottom 10% among their classmates at MIT. As a result, black students were dropping out at much higher rates, and those who didn’t leave typically received lower grades than their white and Asian classmates. Affirmative action had turned some of the smartest kids in the country into failures, in a misguided effort to obtain some predetermined racial mix on the quad.

After racial preferences were banned in the University of California system in 1996, black enrollment at higher-ranked UCLA and Berkeley fell, but black academic outcomes improved. Mr. Sander and Mr. Taylor have demonstrated empirically that as more minority students attended schools where they weren’t at a preparation disadvantage relative to their classmates, grades rose along with graduation rates. That isn’t surprising. Historically black colleges and universities, which are less selective than the top-tier schools, produce about 40% of blacks with undergraduate degrees in math and science, despite accounting for only around 20% of black enrollment.

Racial preferences almost certainly result in fewer black professionals than likely would exist in the absence of such policies, which is bad enough. But they also have a long track record of poisoning the academic environment. The racial unrest on campus today is a byproduct of college admissions schemes that place race above ability. It is also nothing new.

Thomas Sowell, a longtime critic of racial double standards, predicted in his 1990 book, “Preferential Policies,” that they would be “educationally disastrous” for blacks and increase racial tensions and resentment on college campuses. Reviewing the book in the  New York Times, liberal scholar  Andrew Hacker of Queens College sounded a lot like Justice Scalia. “I agree,” he wrote, “that some of the minority students being recruited by high-powered colleges would be better served at schools like my own, where they could proceed at a pace more in tune with their preparation.”

Mr. Riley, a Manhattan Institute senior fellow and Journal contributor, is the author of “Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make It Harder for Blacks to Succeed” (Encounter Books, 2014).
Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 01:24:54 PM by Cup-O


Cindy | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Cindy
IP: Logged

1,803 posts
 
Bear in mind that, with this response, I am neither for or against affirmative action. I think that there are pros and cons to each side and hesitate to pick one to align myself with fully because I don't like making abject decisions on things that I am not really decided on.

That being said, I wanna say this just because I know this thread is gonna become a big talk on affirmative action in general so I wanna throw this out there just as a thought.

But a reminder that affirmative action policies and diversity quotas actually benefit white women more than any other racial or sexual statistic, especially in extremely high-level ivy league schools like Stanford, MIT, Rice, and so on.


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL: Viva Redemption
PSN: HurtfulTurkey
Steam: HurtfulTurkey
ID: HurtfulTurkey
IP: Logged

8,120 posts
 
bumping this

What's most frustrating is that ThinkProgress doesn't even attempt to refute the claim that black students placed into schools above their aptitude logically do worse than other students, they just shit on Scalia as a racist, especially with that awful clickbait title, "Black Students Don’t Need Affirmative Action Because They Benefit From A ‘Slower Track’ ", implying he's saying black people in general benefit from easier schools because they're stupid, which isn't at all what's being said.

The op-ed article hits the nail on the head by criticizing public figures for slandering Scalia as a racist rather than actually talking about what he's arguing [edit: and he's not even arguing anything, he was apparently asking one of the attorneys to qualify similar statements about the negative impact of affirmative action, so Scalia's being called a racist for asking, in court, for a lawyer to make an argument]. Frankly, the real racism here is preferentially placing black students and fucking up their professional education and development for the sake of a quota.
Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 01:39:18 PM by Have A Holly Jolly Turkey