If you truly believe humanity needs to cease, why haven't you killed yourself yet?

1. Because that wouldn't solve the problem at all. Apart from that idea being cunt-tarded on every level, it also doesn't make any sense. Most people don't know that giving birth is wrong. It would be entirely counterintuitive to my ideals if I were to kill myself. You don't end slavery by committing suicide while under servitude. If I'm going to be an advocate for my philosophy, I have to stay the fuck alive.

2. I've developed these things called "friends" during my time on this rock. Perhaps if you had any, you'd be able to sympathize, but killing myself would result in severe emotional trauma for not only these friends that I've made, but my family as well. I have no intention on putting that emotional burden on them.

3. Everything I have accomplished in my life will have been for naught, as well as everything else I also strive for. I have selfish desires, too. I want to have a little bit of a legacy here, as futile as that really is. I still want it, because I'm a human. Killing myself would be fruitless and it would do no good.

4. Even if I wanted to, I don't have the legal right. Nowhere in the world does there exist a country that gives you the right to die. I want to be able to walk into a clinic and ask to be put down, or ask for bye-bye pills. Simple. Quick. Easy. Painless. Peaceful. Free. Infallible. Perfect. I don't want to have to resort to inhumane, botch-able methods, and I frankly shouldn't even have to. No one should.

It's ironic how "edgy" is the most commonly tacked-on label I'm given by all of these natalists out there, because they think I'm trying to be dark and out there. Edgy.

Telling someone to kill themselves, though?
Telling someone that they should commit suicide because they wouldn't be missed anyway?

That's not edgy at all.

You're a fucking cunt.

So, I ask, why such a self defeating belief? Why put an end to things through the starvation of the gene pool and reduction of generations?

I really don't understand what's so "self-defeating" about it. That implies that the game we are playing 1.) can be won, and 2.) is worth winning.

So we all die. Who gives a fuck? The Earth wouldn't. The animals definitely wouldn't. The universe sure as fuck wouldn't. Do you sit and cry your eyes out every day over the fact that there aren't any Martians or Venusians? I don't think you do. Our death isn't a bad thing. It's dying that sucks. And that's all you're afraid of.

You "sort bit of fuck twirled in your head" is showing. That didn't pertain too much to what I said.

I'm saying if I killed myself, right fucking now, I wouldn't be satisfied at all with what I've done and what I failed to finish doing.

Reported.

Not so. Death is an end. But it's not THE end. Look at everything around you. The universe has proven time and again, that everything is a cycle. I don't believe the consciousness that is housed in our bodies is ever truly lost. Death is a physical end. But are we truly lost?

...Yes. You have no evidence. Just speculative mumbo-jumbo crap. No sale.

I'm not reading that.

Well isn't this thread depressing.

It's late tonight, but perhaps tomorrow I'll come back and throw in my few cents about this life thing in which we are all involved in.

Anti natalit ideology is retarded, yeah people around the world are suffering and it's sad but how do you expect most of us that live in first world countries to agree with you? Other than a few things our lives are generally good and if not we have the opportunity to change it whereas those in less developed countries don't. I agree with challenger, we will progress to the point where human suffering is at minimum it will just take time. Killing ourselves off now isn't going to help anyone but the few that are currently living in hardship, and I'm pretty sure the number of  people around the world that appreciate and enjoy life greatly outweighs the number of people who don't.

So while eradicating the human race may be fair to those in suffering it's not fair to those that are happy.

Quote from: Gatsby on September 12, 2014, 04:21:28 AM

Anti natalit ideology is retarded, yeah people around the world are suffering and it's sad but how do you expect most of us that live in first world countries to agree with you? Other than a few things our lives are generally good and if not we have the opportunity to change it whereas those in less developed countries don't. I agree with challenger, we will progress to the point where human suffering is at minimum it will just take time. Killing ourselves off now isn't going to help anyone but the few that are currently living in hardship, and I'm pretty sure the number of  people around the world that appreciate and enjoy life greatly outweighs the number of people who don't.

So while eradicating the human race may be fair to those in suffering it's not fair to those that are happy.

He isn't interested in fairness.

He's just a bitter and lonely individual in denial. I'd pity him if he weren't so fucking disgusting.

There's no helping people stuck in his mindset, no matter what we say I dont think he will change his outlook on life. It's going to take something irl to happen to him that hopefully change his outlook on life and give him a more positive approach.

Why do you equate human existence with suffering? There's suffering in life, of course. But there's happiness, fun, and fulfillment as well. If you had the choice, would you want to never have been born?

I'm not equating human existence with suffering. I'm making a concession that suffering exists and is prevalent as a real thing that happens to most sentient living creatures on this planet, and that it is a problem that none of you people seem to want to address.

Happiness, fun, fulfillment, these things fail to balance the equation. Think of the most pleasurable experience you can and put the level of pleasure you've experienced on a number line. Say it's at 100. Now think of the worst possible scenario you can be in. For me, and I think anyone who's honest with themselves, that number is not -100. The number is more along the lines of -1000, or -10,000. We have a vastly disproportionate value system on this rock. As challengerX pointed out, it doesn't matter if you live in the first world--you will experience some level of suffering.

It's not a matter of how little you suffer--I'm saying even there's one organism on this planet who stubs his toe, I'm saying that is also a travesty that should also dealt with. The fact is, he didn't ask for that stubbed toe, and he didn't ask to be in a world where his toe could get stubbed. And getting his to stubbed implies that much worse things could happen to him, but there can be no better thing that happens to him than, say, being in love with someone. Which some would argue is actually a negative thing.

You're all thinking mostly in the physical realm of suffering, too. Which is good, I applaud that. Usually, by now, I have a bunch of people trying to tell me that I need to stop insulting people because I make people suffer, as if me calling someone a cunt on the Internet is gonna do anyone equitable harm to someone getting their fucking jaw broken. But it is important to look at stuff like the fiscal irresponsibility of the parents. If you're bad with money, if you gamble (having kids is certainly a form of gambling--with someone's welfare. The worst kind) your money, you'd make an awful parent. If you drink frequently, you'd make an awful parent.

If your kid isn't a perfect paragon of virtue when he grows up, you're a terrible parent. The only way to justify imposing anything on anyone is if the result ends up being perfect. If I steal money from you, all of your money, and spend it all on lottery tickets in an attempt at getting you a profit, and I lose every single time, how would you feel? No, you'd only be in the right if you KNEW that you were gonna win a million dollars and then you have to give back the money in private. That would be perfect, that would be selfless. No one would do that. Just like you can't raise a kid perfectly. So it's stupid to try.

"I'm gonna be a good parent"--Meaningless rhetoric. "I'm gonna win you a million dollars."
Wow, that would be really nice, wouldn't it. Sounds good when you type it.

But I don't fucking trust you.

Now... if I had the choice to never have been born, would I take it?...
Let me tell you a story...

I took a trip to Europe last year. It was an educationally-rooted sort of ambassadorial program for students. I visited Italy, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, and France. And Vatican City, if you count that. I was to spend a mere three days in Germany, but part of it was that I had to stay at a random stranger's house in some small rural municipality. I was very scared, naturally, because I had no knowledge of the people I'd be living with. I didn't know if they were drunkards or murderers--they wouldn't be any of these things, it was just my paranoid state thinking all this. The point is, I was scared.

I ended up meeting this... absolutely wonderful family. A sweet old woman and her husband, who can't speak English very well, and their daughter, whom I met last? One of the most beautiful and understanding and fun people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. She taught me so much, not only about her state in Germany, but also about myself. I thought I was in love, if only I believed in that sort of thing. It had been a genuine experience, not one contrived like the times I saw the Colosseum in Rome and the Eiffel Tower in Paris. They paled in comparison to how I felt when I saw this girl for the first time, and all the stuff we did together. Having to say goodbye was one of the most difficult things to deal with in my life.

That said, let me reiterate your question. Do I wish I was never born?

I wish I was born in a world where moments like that are not only commonplace, but constant. Somewhere so peaceful and sublime, nothing could possibly get hurt, nothing could possibly be sad or angry.

This is not the world I was born in.

It's not a matter of how little you suffer—I'm saying even there's one organism on this planet who stubs his toe, I'm saying that is also a travesty that should also dealt with. The fact is, he didn't ask for that stubbed toe, and he didn't ask to be in a world where his toe could get stubbed. And getting his to stubbed implies that much worse things could happen to him, but there can be no better thing that happens to him than, say, being in love with someone. Which some would argue is actually a negative thing.

I ended up meeting this... absolutely wonderful family. A sweet old woman and her husband, who can't speak English very well, and their daughter, whom I met last? One of the most beautiful and understanding and fun people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. She taught me so much, not only about her state in Germany, but also about myself. I thought I was in love, if only I believed in that sort of thing. It had been a genuine experience, not one contrived like the times I saw the Colosseum in Rome and the Eiffel Tower in Paris. They paled in comparison to how I felt when I saw this girl for the first time, and all the stuff we did together. Having to say goodbye was one of the most difficult things to deal with in my life.

That said, let me reiterate your question. Do I wish I was never born?

I wish I was born in a world where moments like that are not only commonplace, but constant. Somewhere so peaceful and sublime, nothing could possibly get hurt, nothing could possibly be sad or angry.

This is not the world I was born in.

Now then! This is what I wanted to hear. You and me are very much familiar in some regards, except that we exist on the opposite end of the spectrum. Now, before we start anything, I'd like to link you over on to something. And you're going to read it because 3 days ago, the weight of what sits on my shoulders snapped. And, at this moment, I am still very much so struggling not to be drowned out by all that I currently look at. You're going to read it, and understand that three days ago, I broke. I shattered into bits. And I took one of those pieces, and wrote that. When you're done, come back and listen to what I have to say.

http://sep7agon.net/index.php?topic=3233.msg75648#msg75648

Now then! This is what I wanted to hear. You and me are very much familiar in some regards, except that we exist on the opposite end of the spectrum. Now, before we start anything, I'd like to link you over on to something. And you're going to read it because 3 days ago, the weight of what sits on my shoulders snapped. And, at this moment, I am still very much so struggling not to be drowned out by all that I currently look at. You're going to read it, and understand that three days ago, I broke. I shattered into bits. And I took one of those pieces, and wrote that. When you're done, come back and listen to what I have to say.

http://sep7agon.net/index.php?topic=3233.msg75648#msg75648

Now, I assume you've read what I put down. Through your eyes, it would give you only more reason to believe in what you hold close correct? And you know what? I can relate. That's fair. When you look at things, it can look like it's not fair. For every good day there's a bad day out there. In fact, there can be many. And usually, there are.

So who, or what would want to live in a world like that? Why would you bother introducing something into an existence where it can get hurt? We as people tend to gravitate to what we like. Things that make us happy and give us pleasure we move towards, while things that hurt us or give us pain, we move away from. Yet regardless, pain will come anyway. There's no avoiding it because that's how the universe works. You can't have only one side of the coin, and you never will. But, here's where things are different between you and I. In all likelyhood, this won't amount to much. But perspective is important on things, so bear with me here.

My life, for the most part, has been bad. Compared to some people, my woes aren't so big. But, regardless, everything I went through as a child, a teen, and early adult wasn't a picnic. In fact it was terrible. It's a wonder I've even managed to hold even a remote semblance of a decent life in my hands with everything that I've had to go through.

But if you went up to me, and asked if I could take all those days back, every bad day, wipe them clean, poof, gone in one shot. I wouldn't accept the offer.

Every single event leading up to now is what made me who I am. And if you took them away, I wouldn't be who I am now. The pain, and the suffering, every experience, good or bad, shapes people. And right now, I'm in a low spot of depression. But I've been there before. I've been so low, that a few years ago, I used to take walks in the night. I'd climb my town's radio tower, all the way to the top, and hang over the edge. See just how far I could lean over before I had to steady myself. I was close. So close to letting go.

But I realized something. If I let go, I'd be inflicting pain and suffering on the few I called friends and family. And if I went through with it, I'd be a selfish bastard. So I walked down from the tower one night, and the next morning, I opened up to somebody. Told them everything. And then I started trying to get back up, to make something of myself.

Now, by extension, my family has troubles too. They've always had troubles, even more so than me. I am just the product of a long line of troubles. But I aim to change that. The only three reasonably normal people in my family would be me, and my sister, and her husband. Everybody else beyond that has something plaguing them. And all three of us have had our bad share of things. But something changed a little while back. My sister and her husband had a kid. And you know what that did? It brought the family together.

I would never have accomplished half of what I have today if I didn't believe that I could make something good for my niece. My mother, who hates my sister's husband with a passion, and has her own burdens to carry, has softened up so much over the years. And although she's got a long way to go concerning progress, the changes she made when that child showed up was not only unexpected from her, but quite surprising.

In general, because of that child, a lot of good has come. And because of every single shitty day beforehand, my niece is the wonderful person she is today. And if she were never born, all of the good things that have happened since then would have never happened.

Now, where you believe that because pain exists, we should all essentially lay down and die through the course of generational degredation, I have a respect for life and all that it brings. The moments of happiness wouldn't be what they are if we didn't go through the bad shit first. And I believe, that because of our perspective on things, and the incredible power of enginuity that we as humans have, we can balance things. We can make things fair. We can make things good.

But we're still young. We haven't been around long enough, we haven't evolved far enough yet to look past our primal aspects. But that doesn't mean we still can't try. And I believe that the best way to do it is through example. I try to be the best that I can be, to any and all. No, I shouldn't say the best. The kindest. The fairest. And, someday, my little niece will be like that too, because her parents raised her with the same mindset. And she might start a family, and so on. And eventually, a trend might start.

There will always be pain, and there will always be challenges and suffering. But not if we try to stop it. Not if we, one day, as a species, break free of our primal shackles and our simple material greed. And the simplest way to do that is to be the best that you can. I will take each day as it comes. I will take the pain that it brings, and I will learn, I will remember, and move on, to the better days when they come, and I will enjoy them all the greater because of what I've gone through. I will respect what I have, and what has been given.

Life, no matter how hard it can be, how cruel it can be, is special. It isn't something to be denied or blocked, or taken away. If you've made it this far, then I have just one single thing to ask.

If life was so unfair, so cruel and wrong, then why did the kitten I mention spend every waking moment clinging to it? Why did it, in it's last hours, despite it's misery, still show so much love and affection, and the will to move and live, and enjoy and explore things?

Regardless of what we are, all of us cling to life for a reason. And denying that to anything, denying the possibility for change and experiences and everything that comes with it, is flawed.

Try looking at things in a different light one day. Maybe you'll see, and maybe you won't. But, that's our choice to make isn't it? And we all will eventually come to face the results of our choices down the line.

Whatever. Like I've said many times before, I would simply argue two things.
1. Obviously, you haven't seen that much shit in your life.
2. Even if you have, you've thus far failed to account for the fact that it's ubiquitous across all the world.

Saying that you "get it" is a very disgusting and GLIB thing to say when you obviously don't get it.
It's like telling someone with major depression that you understand their pain. It's just... ugh. So irritating.

So far, all the arguments against my philosophy have been...
"Your idea is retarded."
"Your idea is too miserable."

Which amounts to... "It doesn't make me happy or give me hope [a religious concept], so I won't believe in it."

Oh, and some kid's trying to tell me that there's an afterlife or some kooky shit like that.
Sorry, no sale.