Ask an anti-natalist anything.

Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 04:43:18 PM

Because SoporificSlash wants to dance.

I really hate having to have this discussion, but I do sort of have to have it with people if I want the ideology to get anywhere, so...

All right... Let's play the game.

DAS B00T x2 · September 11, 2014, 04:51:47 PM

Which is preferable: a conscious stabilization and 1:1 birth/death rate or a similarly self-imposed negative rate leading to the extinction of humanity?

Mordo · September 11, 2014, 04:58:37 PM

Why are you so vitriolically hostile to everyone?

Really, I don't have a problem with your beliefs, but the way you respond to people with such disdain for disagreeing or even communicating with you is insane.

Yu · September 11, 2014, 05:01:53 PM

What is an anti-natalist?

More Than Mortal · September 11, 2014, 05:02:37 PM

Quote from: Yutaka on September 11, 2014, 05:01:53 PM

What is an anti-natalist?

Of all the fucking questions to ask, could you not ask something so goddamn asinine?

PSU · September 11, 2014, 05:05:35 PM

Are you against animals reproducing too? Or just humans?

God · September 11, 2014, 05:11:08 PM

Do you actually think the entire human race could ever be persuaded to your side? Or that it's a worthwhile effort to make yourself miserable trying to make other people see their own misery?

challengerX · September 11, 2014, 05:15:25 PM

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Yu · September 11, 2014, 05:25:04 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 11, 2014, 05:02:37 PM

Quote from: Yutaka on September 11, 2014, 05:01:53 PM
What is an anti-natalist?
Of all the fucking questions to ask, could you not ask something so goddamn asinine?

I have never heard of it before, cut me some slack.

Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 05:33:40 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T x2 on September 11, 2014, 04:51:47 PM

Which is preferable: a conscious stabilization and 1:1 birth/death rate or a similarly self-imposed negative rate leading to the extinction of humanity?

The latter. I don't see what the point of maintaining a constant population (as I understood the former) would be, considering the whole idea of the movement is to halt reproduction for the ideal of the prevention of suffering. The former seems to represent a system of perpetual perpetuation, which I don't see any humanitarian use for, as you're still maintaining the human race, and thus, maintaining the ability to suffer.

Quote from: Madman Mordo on September 11, 2014, 04:58:37 PM

Why are you so vitriolically hostile to everyone?

Really, I don't have a problem with your beliefs, but the way you respond to people with such disdain for disagreeing or even communicating with you is insane.

I'm here to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. If you're content with the shit you're swimming in, I'm gonna knock your head right in it so maybe you'll get a taste of how insidiously stupid our situation is.

Quote from: Yutaka on September 11, 2014, 05:01:53 PM

What is an anti-natalist?

Someone who thinks it's wrong to have kids as a philosophical position.

Quote from: PSU on September 11, 2014, 05:05:35 PM

Are you against animals reproducing too? Or just humans?

I'm against animals reproducing, too. That's called efilism. That's a whole different ballpark though, and I'd rather not go into that here. It's way too crazily broad and I don't claim to know everything about it.

Quote from: God on September 11, 2014, 05:11:08 PM

Do you actually think the entire human race could ever be persuaded to your side? Or that it's a worthwhile effort to make yourself miserable trying to make other people see their own misery?

There was a time where most of the human race thought it was okay to own slaves (not counting the slaves themselves, obviously).

I don't care if it's miserable. If your grasp of philosophy is, "whatever makes me happy, I'll believe in," then you're not ready for any rational philosophical discussion on virtually anything of any real substance. It's not about whether the philosophy makes you happy. Does it describe reality?

Quote from: challengerX on September 11, 2014, 05:15:25 PM

Why are you one?

The whole premise is absurd. Suffering is an important part of life. In fact, I'm glad I've had a life where I've suffered enough to truly appreciate even the smallest of things. You'll find those that have never suffered too much don't really enjoy their lives, and make mountains out of molehills. Life is so precious, and we have so much potential as a species. I can't understand why a single person on this Earth would not want us to succeed and explore the stars, come into contact with other cultures and elements.

I can't see a reason as to why somebody would have this mindset, but let's see if you can give an explanation. Really, what led you to this? One bad experience, several bad experiences? All the suffering around the world?

Because I came to the logical conclusion that it was an accurate description of reality.

The application of empathy was the biggest catalyst, if you will, in determining my stance. My own personal experiences are really irrelevant, just like yours are. All suffering in the world—That is what I'm accounting for. If you've ever seen some REAL shit, real people tortured and depraved and slaughtered—you're more likely to see where I'm coming from.

You start thinking about how none of these people asked to be born on this rock to begin with. Is it really ethical for us to give birth to these people when they never had the choice to begin with?

No, it isn't. All the petty bullshit you deal with in your life, everything you've endured, everything you hate, everything you regret—multiply that by a hundred and you have something that slightly resembles what most of the human race slogs through every single day. What gives us the right to impose that on future generations?

PSU · September 11, 2014, 05:37:35 PM

Even through all the suffering I've been through (Not comparing it to others who have gone through worse) I still love life. I'm very thankful I have the opportunity to live.

challengerX · September 11, 2014, 05:41:12 PM

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Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 05:49:09 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 11, 2014, 05:41:12 PM

I've seen people get tortured and killed. That doesn't mean I haven't seen the good in life. You think because there's bad things that happen the solution is to not even exist? What about happiness?

Looks like you've given up. Did I want to be born? That doesn't even compute. I'm here and I'm going to do everything and anything to live as long as possible and as happily as possible.

Why should I give up on existence because I'm going to have bad experiences? Why should any being do so? With bad there's good to balance it out.

You ask, "What about happiness" as if sadness and happiness are perfect opposites. As if they are proportional. I'm saying they are vastly disproportional. The greatest orgasm in the world is not proportionally as powerful as getting stabbed or shot.

I'm not asking you if you wanted to be born. I'm asking you if it's ethical to force others into existence. I don't care about you or how much you think your shitty life is worth. No matter how good you think your life is, it's the only life you know, so your opinion on life is really irrelevant, because you have failed to account for all the suffering that exists in the world. If you think it's at all equal or proportional, you're deluded.

And no one's telling you to give up on existence.
I'm telling you not to have fucking kids. That's literally all I'm saying.

There is no "balance" in the universe. That is complete, utter nonsense. You're basically telling me that a PERFECT amount of holocausts have occurred. There's a perfect amount of organisms on this rock whose only purpose is to dig a hole inside of you and eat your fucking brains. There's not too much and there's not too little of that bullshit—it's the PERFECT amount.

Garbage.

challengerX · September 11, 2014, 05:54:08 PM

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More Than Mortal · September 11, 2014, 05:54:55 PM

What if somebody, ethically, just doesn't give a fuck about the aggregate suffering?

Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: challengerX on September 11, 2014, 05:54:08 PM

You aren't forcing anybody into creation because there's nobody to ask.

Oh, fuck. Come on. They're going to exist. You really can't figure that one out?

Quote from: challengerX on September 11, 2014, 05:54:08 PM

And there is balance. Exact balance? No. But it's not something to get technical about. What I'm saying is there is generally an equal amount of good and bad in the human species and our lives as a whole.

So, yeah, again, justify the holocaust. The holocaust should have happened, otherwise there's no balance. There's an inordinate amount of positivity in the world because the holocaust didn't happen. Can't have that, right? Right? Right?

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 11, 2014, 05:54:55 PM

What if somebody, ethically, just doesn't give a fuck about the aggregate suffering?

Then I'd hope that somebody gets the aggregate suffering. That's right. If you really don't care about all the suffering in the world, I hope the absolute worst for you. I hope you get all the suffering. And once you get what you deserve, then talk to me about how much you don't care.

Jocephalopod · September 11, 2014, 06:03:24 PM

lol is this an actual practiced ideology?

seems like some people over think things

Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 06:04:53 PM

Quote from: Jocephalopod on September 11, 2014, 06:03:24 PM

lol is this an actual practiced ideology?

seems like some people over think things

Oh fuck off. "Don't use your brain, guys, that's not what they're for."
Get out.

Juuzou · September 11, 2014, 06:06:12 PM

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PSU · September 11, 2014, 06:07:13 PM

But what about if we have already had a kid, should I just not have another one?

Jocephalopod · September 11, 2014, 06:08:26 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 11, 2014, 06:04:53 PM

Quote from: Jocephalopod on September 11, 2014, 06:03:24 PM
lol is this an actual practiced ideology?

seems like some people over think things
Oh fuck off. "Don't use your brain, guys, that's not what they're for."
Get out.

what? i really can't take anyone with a stance like yours seriously, telling me to use my brain yet hoping for the extinction of humanity...

challengerX · September 11, 2014, 06:08:33 PM

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Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 06:09:03 PM

Quote from: Lady Noelle on September 11, 2014, 06:06:12 PM

Do you like anal?

If she wanted it, I'd probably oblige, but I would never ask anyone. It seems really painful, and I doubt anyone genuinely enjoys having a dick up their asshole. Hurting people during sex is a bit of a turnoff for me, I don't know about you.

Juuzou · September 11, 2014, 06:11:56 PM

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God · September 11, 2014, 06:14:34 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 11, 2014, 06:09:03 PM

I doubt anyone genuinely enjoys having a dick up their asshole.

And you call other people ignorant.

DAS B00T x2 · September 11, 2014, 06:15:12 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on September 11, 2014, 06:09:03 PM

Quote from: Lady Noelle on September 11, 2014, 06:06:12 PM
Do you like anal?
If she wanted it, I'd probably oblige, but I would never ask anyone. It seems really painful, and I doubt anyone genuinely enjoys having a dick up their asshole. Hurting people during sex is a bit of a turnoff for me, I don't know about you.

Hi.

Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 06:20:50 PM

Quote from: Lady Noelle on September 11, 2014, 06:11:56 PM

You do not understand the question. Do you like anal? I said nothing about you doing it to somebody else.

This was answered. If I can't empathize with people who do like anal, what makes you think I would?

Quote from: PSU on September 11, 2014, 06:07:13 PM

But what about if we have already had a kid, should I just not have another one?

I would politely advise that you not have another one. There have been anti-natalist parents before.

Quote from: Jocephalopod on September 11, 2014, 06:08:26 PM

what? i really can't take anyone with a stance like yours seriously, telling me to use my brain yet hoping for the extinction of humanity...

Then let me ask you a question then, bubba. Why does humanity NEED to exist?

Quote from: challengerX on September 11, 2014, 06:08:33 PM

They're going to exist. But they're going to have a good life as far as I'm concerned.

That's such a disgusting, glib thing to say. "As far as you're concerned", yeah, you're obviously not concerned AT ALL for anyone's life but your own, so this discussion is just about pointless. You have to concede that life is shit in order to even really have a serious discussion with me about this, otherwise we're at an impasse.

Quote

Will other people create bad experiences for them? Of course. But these things make you a stronger person.

I mean, this is just too stupid, right? Why go through the hassle at all? You start out your life as a little asshole so you can, what, grow up to be a SUPER ASSHOLE!!!... No, you've failed to demonstrate how life itself is worth living. You're imposing your own experiences on them, and you just can't do that. Kids die every day, slowly, violently. Account for them.

How much better is a person once they have both of their legs busted? Hmm?

Quote

There is no way to justify the holocaust of the Jews or any other genocide that took place and is taking place today. There's no way to justify any sort of violence on innocents. The point is we keep going and strive to one day become a unified species and grow and explore together. It WILL happen.

Says you. I see NO evidence to suggest that we're going to amount to anything other than shit.

Quote

Life is worth living. Otherwise, why don't all the people that live in slums across the world just off themselves? Because they want better.

Well, no, obviously. It's because they don't have the right, they don't have the know-how, and they don't have the balls. Really. You can't just walk into a clinic, like you should be able to do, and ask for suicide pills. You can't ask to be put down. You should be able to, but you can't. People will have to resort to vastly inefficient and inhumane and familialy trauamatizing methods like hanging themselves, drowning themselves, shooting themselves... They shouldn't have to do anything they don't have to just to kill themselves. We don't give people that right ANYWHERE in the world.

Quote

It's how we're "programmed" for lack of a better word. We just are. I never questioned why I exist and I'm not about to right now. We deserve to be here because we're the best on the planet. Eventually we'll unify. For now, we're still very primitive. That's exactly why we have to keep going and we need as many good people in the world as possible.

Just a bunch of idealistic, speculative crap that means nothing in the world of philosophy. I'm all for making the world a better place for future generations to live in, but only because it's going to be a long time before we start convincing people that this whole "life" thing is an unintelligently designed shitstain in the universe that is in our moral obligation to clean up.

Juuzou · September 11, 2014, 06:22:06 PM

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Verbatim · September 11, 2014, 06:22:47 PM

Quote

This was answered. If I can't empathize with people who do like anal, what makes you think I would like anal?
In other words, no, I don't.

More Than Mortal · September 11, 2014, 06:26:07 PM

Doesn't anti-natalism rely on the general assumption that suffering is a vice and pleasure a virtue?

It would seem your first job is to support than assumption.