A pro-choice medical student witnesses an abortion

challengerX · April 20, 2015, 02:47:00 PM

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Not Comms Officer · April 20, 2015, 02:47:30 PM

Quote from: challengerX on April 20, 2015, 02:47:00 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 02:45:40 PM
Oh, and I'd just like to thank you, Sandtrap, for not only having the patience to take a discussion like this seriously, but for presenting a wonderful example of how to converse with me. Not through slander or insults, but through rational insight. Thank you for that.
Suck a dick faggot

OMG #REKT

Flee · April 20, 2015, 03:23:06 PM

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challengerX · April 20, 2015, 03:27:01 PM

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Miia · April 20, 2015, 04:13:36 PM

I'm pro-life and this kinda just reaffirmed my stance.

Mr. Psychologist · April 20, 2015, 05:02:44 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 01:28:19 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on April 20, 2015, 11:43:19 AM
So are you saying your opinion on life in general is different in some way? Or are you just assuming that my opinion on life only extends to myself? You can't have it both ways there.

For one, my opinions on how I live my life vary significantly from how I view life in general or the lives of others.
Same here. This is the philosophy. It's not a discussion of our individual lives. That's anecdotal and generally useless. The philosophy is about the human condition as a whole. It's not a personal decision not to have kids--it's the logical statement that having children is wrong.

A logical statement by tenuous means, sure.

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Of course because the idea that an entire species will voluntarily wipe itself out is equatable to the prospect of treating all men equally.
http://sep7agon.net/index.php?topic=34821.0

Spoiler

Make whatever analogies you please but choosing absurd ones or incomparable ones doesn't help your argument as much as you think it does.

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Yes, it is equatable. PERFECTLY equatable. But only in the sense that they both represent a VAST and controversial outlook on life. Yes, the idea of freeing the slaves used to be extremely controversial. Just as the notion of voluntary human extinction is today. The fact that you think I'm trying to say that slavery = natalism is so obnoxiously fucking stupid.

That fact that you think that's what I'm getting at is rather amusing, my point was that you drew a silly analogy when a more suitable one would have sufficed instead of something that's bordering on an appeal to emotions.

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Imposing something that can be taken away easily is hardly that great of an imposition, if someone grows up to find themselves wishing they were never born and that said thoughts aren't simply the result of mental illness then they can always find a way to exit this plane of existence.
Fuck. You.

I've had this fucking argument so many goddamn times, and you're going to pull this WEAK shit.

I wonder why.

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No, suicide is not an easy option, you dumb CUNT. By the time people can even make the rational decision to kill themselves, they've already likely grown highly attached to everyone in their lives, and even though they want to kill themselves, now they have a ton of pressure to live, simply because it would be a goddamn tragedy. It would fuck up the lives of everyone who cared about them. So no, it's not an easy fucking option.

No fucking shit, talk about preaching to the choir there. People who make the decision to end their lives are either A) Mentally Ill or B) Have a set of life circumstances that causes them to make said decision, either to escape shame or debt or whatever myriad cause it can be.

My point there was that no person of sound mind is going to want to kill themselves simply because they hate the fact that they were born, if they do then there is something wrong with their psychology and they need treatment.

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Not to mention, euthanasia is ILLEGAL basically everywhere. You can't just walk into a clinic and ask for suicide pills, it doesn't fucking work like that.

For good reason, with a shift towards humanitarian euthanasia in recent years too. People who wish to end their lives must be of a sound mind and not afflicted with delusions or mental illness. Hating the idea that they were born without consent isn't sufficient grounds to end your life unless they have another affliction that is tainting their mind.

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People resort to gruesome, grotesque, painful, inhumane methods when they could instead opt for a graceful exit. Except the state won't allow for it. So we have all these fucking hoops we have to jump over. And for you to be this moderator of a forum, standing above everyone else, being this "model citizen" of the forum, and this is the shit you SPEW on the fucking Internet? "Don't like life? Just kill yourself. It's that easy."

Nice to see your reading comprehension goes down as your blood pressure goes up. To spell it out, read the above again.

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Fuck you, you glib cunt. FUCK you.

Spoiler

Also:

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Oh, and I'd just like to thank you, Sandtrap, for not only having the patience to take a discussion like this seriously, but for presenting a wonderful example of how to converse with me. Not through slander or insults, but through rational insight. Thank you for that.

The irony is delicious

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Impose, read the second definition. A clear discussion about antinatalism is fine, it's whenever you drag it up in unrelated topics that it becomes tiresome. That is banging on about it.
Abortion is huge. Of COURSE my CORE FUCKING PHILOSOPHICAL BELIEF is going to be brought up.

Get the FUCK over it.

You act like there is something I need to get over here, when in fact I'd say the one flaming away with allcaps and profanity might need to get over something.

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Well duh, it doesn't shove you back up into your mother's womb
And unless it does that, suicide isn't a good option. It doesn't solve the problem. At all.

At.

All.

Spoiler

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A slave who commits suicide will never end slavery. You can't end slavery if you're fucking DEAD.

A fair enough point but again comparing childbirth to slavery. The analogy simply doesn't match up beyond 'being forced to do something' Enslavement of free sentient beings to exploit for free labour =/= The horrors of conception, gestation and birth. Which you aren't consciously aware of.

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It's not slander, it's an accurate label.
Then "worthless cunt" would be an accurate label for you.

Again with the platinum mad, this is really rather tiresome.

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A set of beliefs that is firmly entrenched in an individual who will not accept any flaws pointed out or concede them, you don't believe they are flaws so you don't see them as flaws. That's dogmatic.

There is a nice easy litmus test for this though.

1. Do you think your philosophy is correct?
2. Why do you think it is correct?
3. Do you think it could be wrong?
4. If not, why not?
1. Yes, obviously. I wouldn't fucking believe in it if I thought it was wrong, would I? Could you be more inarticulate?
2. Because I have been presented with no better alternatives.
3. It's possible. Hence why I have discussions.
4. If I didn't think I could be wrong, I would never have discussions about it.

Why would I waste time trying to prove people wrong if I knew that I was right?

Once again getting too wound up over some simple questions, the purpose isn't to determine whether you believe what you spout which you clearly do, but to follow through with the logic of whether you question your own beliefs, which thankfully you claim to do so.

Anyway, good lord you get so emotional over a simple discussion on a forum. I know that expressing your emotions is healthy and all but there are limits to where you should take it.

+++

Once more for highlighting it

Hypocrisy stage 1

Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 01:37:58 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on April 20, 2015, 11:43:19 AM
by the way, way to blame me for bringing the subject up when it actually wasn't me at all

i stated my opinion on the subject, which indeed was rooted in my philosophy, because why the fuck wouldn't it be
and then people started asking me questions about it

so i answered them
which sort of requires that i bring up anti-natalism

you're basically telling me that i should have never stated my opinion in this thread
to which i say, go fuck yourself, you totalitarian piece of shit

Hypocrisy stage 2

Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 02:45:40 PM

Oh, and I'd just like to thank you, Sandtrap, for not only having the patience to take a discussion like this seriously, but for presenting a wonderful example of how to converse with me. Not through slander or insults, but through rational insight. Thank you for that.

One fiiiiiiinal note before I post this

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you're basically telling me that i should have never stated my opinion in this thread
to which i say, go fuck yourself, you totalitarian piece of shit

The mental gymnastics it must have taken for you to get me telling you that you should have never posted your opinion in this thread are astounding.

My original query with you was regarding your apparently dour view of the lives of the disabled to which you of course started on about anti-natalism, hence this little chitchat.

Have a pleasant evening.

Nick McIntyre · April 20, 2015, 05:08:02 PM

More Than Mortal · April 20, 2015, 05:15:15 PM

What the actual fuck is even going on in this thread.

More Than Mortal · April 20, 2015, 05:22:40 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 20, 2015, 01:14:46 AM

I know Verb enjoys insulting my so called "pseudo buddhist" outlook.

Pretty sure that's actually me.

Sandtrap · April 20, 2015, 05:29:53 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on April 20, 2015, 05:22:40 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 20, 2015, 01:14:46 AM
I know Verb enjoys insulting my so called "pseudo buddhist" outlook.
Pretty sure that's actually me.

That I'm aware of. But in the past I do remember Verb openly being insulting about my particular outlook as well.

I just use your term because I know not what to call it and nor do I particularily care.

He'd probably call me a pseudo buddhist too anyway.

More Than Mortal · April 20, 2015, 05:35:04 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 20, 2015, 05:29:53 PM

But in the past I do remember Verb openly being insulting about my particular outlook as well.

Looks like your philosophy doesn't play well with empiricism or sceptical pessimism, then.

Sandtrap · April 20, 2015, 06:01:26 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 02:40:12 PM

What I'd like to see from you is an attempt to justify childbirth. Why should the species to continue? What great purpose do we still need to fulfill here on Earth? And why can't that purpose be to quietly subside?

Spoiler

Now that's a good question. And I see you've been ding dong bannu'd. So I'll just leave this behind and hope that eyes stray over it at some point.

That's not a question I can outright answer because its so inherently tied into the way things work. It is, ingrained into us as a species, and everything all around us. A need to continue. A push and a drive, naturally evolved into us.

We're straying into god/no god territory here. And that's something we don't want to drift over to here.

The best answer I can give you is this.

Children are stupid. Technically, when a child is born, they can be considered stupid. They're a blank slate with no knowledge of anything. The world is new to them. And, as they grow, into a young kid, they'll inevititably make mistakes. They'll get a bit of heck from their parents for it.

They'll learn. They'll grow up into an adult and do something more than they were previously capable of.

Our species are all still kids. We're still, just learning how to walk and run.

How long as a species, have we existed? Give or take 400,000 years.

The Dinosaurs died out 65,000,000 years ago. They weren't even alive for that long, they've just been dead for that long. In terms of age compared to a lot of things on our planet, and in our solar system, we're still retarded babies.

Now, we can all agree that the end goal of evolution, is success. Something succeeds and improves upon a previous design that failed or did not cut it.

Being sentient, and existing on another level of consciousness over other life forms around us, I think it's within our capability to grow further.

I'm not arguing that there's a plan or an end goal. But an end goal to reach, essentially, for us, ideally, would be as caretakers. Understanding more of how the universe works and manipulating things for the benefit and favor of everything.

If we understood our brains completely, and their function completely, understood their chemical make up and what caused this, and the removal of that caused something else and so on, then logically it's safe to assume that we could engineer ourselves paradise.

Engineer bodies and minds to the maximum potential a physical body could go.

Fuck, we could even go on really far out grounds here and just remove the physical presence altogether. Just a mind, immune to misery.

If that state can ever be reached by any living entities, then the end is justified by the means to get there. The, suffering of everybody else beforehand was worth it because without them, without that suffering, said species would have never been able to reach that point.

Essentially, in a big TL:DR

We don't quit in the face of adversity. We strive to do better and to push further. Strive to reach something better and to create something better. Every single death beforehand, would be worth it in the name of reaching a point were control could be established over all forms of discomfort, and that discomfort, removed.

Because simply looking at the hardship and stopping, saying, "Fuck this I quit" is against our nature. Rather than end, why don't we reach an end, where we can have no end if we choose it?

We're here. So why don't we be stubborn and do our absolute best to make things the best? Make the suffering count instead of submitting. Because if you submit, and end, permanently, then the suffering of those before you was wasted. It was wasted effort, wasted time, and it would be an insult not to make the best of what those before you tried to make.

It would be like... a selfish and spoiled child throwing away a gift he got from his parents without realizing how much he had, right there in his hands.

That's about the best justification I can try to sum up. If you want a real world example Verb, not to get all weepy and shit.

But I'm on fucking Chemo. You got one of my previous messages. If I said "Fuck it I quit." Then I'd be a selfish for abusing and ignoring what I still have.

And that's it, then.

Sandtrap · April 20, 2015, 06:02:49 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on April 20, 2015, 05:35:04 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 20, 2015, 05:29:53 PM
But in the past I do remember Verb openly being insulting about my particular outlook as well.
Looks like your philosophy doesn't play well with empiricism or sceptical pessimism, then.

No. No Meta. Pls. Don't use these big scary words on me. I don't remember them. And I don't recognize them. And I know I won't remember them if I dictionaried them.

Explain it to me like I'm a retard farmer in a field.

Why would I not sit well with those folks? I recognize pessimist, which, I do remember means somebody who's a right bundle of cheer and optimisim concerning anything.

challengerX · April 20, 2015, 06:13:30 PM

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Not Comms Officer · April 20, 2015, 06:29:08 PM

Quote from: Flee on April 20, 2015, 03:23:06 PM

im a communist

That's all I got from you, sorry. :/

challengerX · April 20, 2015, 06:29:39 PM

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Sandtrap · April 20, 2015, 07:26:31 PM

One last try here. You got me thinking Verb. Don't get me thinking. Too scattered for it to make proper sense of things. Anyway. One, last word here, about an argument for childbirth. Exposure to suffering.

World War II. Let's just say, that nobody stood up to Germany. And they fucking steamrolled over everything. If no soldier had stood up and died, to end that war, we wouldn't be here today. Not in our current form and way of doing things.

Those soldiers, and all those people in the conflict, died to put an end, to that conflict. That's what life is. It's one, very big, very long conflict.

Wouldn't you agree that because those soldiers did what they did in WWII, that we're in a better way now? They did a lot of terrible things. Both sides did. But the conflict, eventually ended. It stopped.

So if we or anything else stands a chance to reach an end to conflict, or in your case, an end to misery, should they not try their absolute hardes to get there? To succeed?

Remember. There are two sides. Creation. And Destruction. These are fundamental, constants. It's scientific fact. Everything functions in this particular cycle. But at it's core, everything around us can be calculated by math. Everything we know, everything we do, and see.

And if you can understand that language, mathematics, then you can try your hand at messing with the code.

Engineering people beyond our constraints. Because our brains, our emotions, are all controlled by chemicals. And instinct. An ingrained, under the surface need to do the things that we do.

And, for one last example. My little niece. She is, truly somebody special for her age. And she's the only reason, that frankly, I persist today.

Because I know that she's going to have some rough days ahead. I don't want her to have to go through with those days alone. I don't want to see the person that she has the potential to be, tarnished and broken. If that little kid wasn't around a few years back, I'd have been dead, a long while back. I'd have jumped from that radio tower of mine that I visit on strange nights.

So saying that having a kid is inherently bad, sits quite opposed to me because it's one, singular little kid who I want the best for. She's not even mine. I'm just her uncle. But I want to see her reach the best she can get to. And I want to help. I want to be there on the bad days.

I can't erase the bad days entirely. But the fact that somebody cares, somebody, is there to take the brunt of the bad for her is what matters to me.

I think, the world round us would be much, much better if we truly understand what we can do, by setting and leading by example. And, by setting, and leading by exmaple, and getting more people to think, and act, that far away end I mention, an end to misery, the removal of discomfort.

We'll get there just a bit faster if we were acting constructively, instead of deconstructively.

When, and if you ever see a kid who doesn't know anything for the first time, who sees the world like brand new, you'll understand. You'll want to protect that. And preserve it as much as you can. You can't win them all. Not yet.

But that's life, for now.

Rather than sit down, and call it quits. Simply stand up and go. Push against your limits. Push against what's not fair and fight to make it fair. And if you fail? Say we get wiped out by an asteroid?

At the very least, we tried. And that's what counts. Trying, and persisting, to reach an end that justifies all the bullshit you went through to get there. Exactly like those soldiers in the first and second world wars.

DAS B00T x2 · April 20, 2015, 08:05:38 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 19, 2015, 08:56:00 PM

Quote from: the boat ECKS two on April 19, 2015, 08:54:13 PM
Meh... I've seen things die before.
Stepping on ants doesn't count.

Nah man, like, mammals.
Either way, OP's argument is bad an he should feel bad.

Ushan · April 21, 2015, 01:46:04 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 07:52:41 AM

Which is reasonable, and I'm all for that. But here's the thing--the idea of choosing not to have children is actually becoming a pretty widespread personal decision in the first world. The nations that are reproducing the very most also happen to be the ones that are the biggest shitholes on the planet, and they are reproducing extremely rapidly. In the first world, the average couple is actually not having enough children to sustain the human race. You basically need to have more than one child in order to that, obviously. The people who are imposing the most also happen to be the dumbest and poorest people on the planet.

I'm sure you probably wouldn't like being born in India, or Bangladesh, or some other developing country.

I'd argue that people choosing to not have kids/having fewer kids is a result of a shift from the societal norms of yesteryear as we no longer view women as only being capable of being mothers, nuns, or prostitutes, and a man's worth isn't in some way directly proportional to the number of kids he's pumped into women. That in turn is a result of the deviation from a society with a large percentage of its population working in agriculture to a society with an economic focus on non-agricultural goods/services.

The reason why the shit holes of the world also tend to have the largest number of births per family unit is because child and infant mortality rates are far higher than countries that aren't completely fucked and a general lack of education on; and availability of birth control. It also doesn't help that children also tend to be viewed as cheap labour by a lot of people living in those countries.

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Touching the bark on trees is a little bit too niche of an interest--are you sure it's really the feel of the bark on your fingertips that you like, or something else about it? Either way, I could just make the argument from there that we're basically imposing life so that we can... what, feel trees? Is that worth it? Hmm...

It doesn't need to be bark, I find I enjoy the texture of a variety of plants. But that's neither here nor there.

First off, I honestly don't feel that life is imposed on me. Perhaps yes, my initial conception wasn't formed of my own volition, but that occurred before I had a will of my own. But now that I am capable of rational thought, I have opted to continue my existence. If I truly had no wish to continue living, I could literally walk down stairs, take a knife from the kitchen, go back upstairs and draw the knife vertically down my wrists and be dead long before anyone would even know about it. Secondly, if it's good enough for me, why question it?

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What you said earlier, however, is a pretty good point--we can certainly take measures to improve the human condition, but ultimately, I just don't think we really have any grand purpose to fulfill. You say it would be an insult to our ancestors--our ancestors were irrational in the sense that they were all religious nuts who thought we WERE doing something on this planet. That we're REALLY going somewhere. And we're not, in my opinion.

What need is there for a grand purpose? If you enjoy life, live it, if you don't, you're free to off yourself, for the most part.

Cindy · April 21, 2015, 03:06:25 AM

"I was training to be a heart surgeon...but then it looked too violent and I couldn't do it so now I'm not a heart surgeon"

DiamondSentinel · April 21, 2015, 07:18:31 AM

The slippery slope and anecdote in this thread is real...

Ender · April 21, 2015, 12:02:21 PM

I'm still pro choice.

It does sound gruesome, but not everything in life is pretty.

aREALgod · April 21, 2015, 11:50:56 PM

I am pleased to see my thread divulging rational, calm, and thought-provoking discussion. Thank you for you participation. Remember, only YOU can make it happen!

Isara · April 22, 2015, 07:33:45 AM

What did he expect abortions to be like? A fair? Does he understand the implications of an unwanted or undesired pregnancy? Possibly not, noticing that he discards all those over the "shock" of actually looking at what a professional has to do.

Doctor Doom · April 22, 2015, 02:58:12 PM

Let us now discuss how much ass Dr. Mentalist kicked in this thread.

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 20, 2015, 06:01:26 PM

But I'm on fucking Chemo. You got one of my previous messages. If I said "Fuck it I quit." Then I'd be a selfish for abusing and ignoring what I still have.

Interestingly, I hear most sick and elderly enjoy their life more than those who aren't. Like all finite resources, people tend to see and understand the value of it when they know they're running out of it.

CIS · April 22, 2015, 04:10:35 PM

challengerX · April 22, 2015, 05:32:20 PM

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Verbatim · April 22, 2015, 06:41:35 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on April 20, 2015, 05:02:44 PM

A logical statement by tenuous means, sure.

You've yet to demonstrate how it is tenuous. Just like literally everyone I've ever discussed this subject with.

"Humans need to exist because _________________."

Fill in the blank.

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Make whatever analogies you please but choosing absurd ones or incomparable ones doesn't help your argument as much as you think it does.

The analogy was neither absurd, nor was it incomparable. They were perfectly equatable.

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That fact that you think that's what I'm getting at is rather amusing, my point was that you drew a silly analogy when a more suitable one would have sufficed instead of something that's bordering on an appeal to emotions.

>a more suitable one

Like what. What better example could I have possibly given other than slavery. One of the biggest progressive movements in history compared with an even more ambitious progressive movement (the voluntary extinction of the human race). There is nothing quite like a movement like that, so I went with the closest possible thing. But apparently you have more suitable examples.

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No fucking shit, talk about preaching to the choir there. People who make the decision to end their lives are either A) Mentally Ill or B) Have a set of life circumstances that causes them to make said decision, either to escape shame or debt or whatever myriad cause it can be.

Or because they don't want to live anymore. You forgot that really basic part that no one else would have ever missed.

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My point there was that no person of sound mind is going to want to kill themselves simply because they hate the fact that they were born, if they do then there is something wrong with their psychology and they need treatment.

Why? Why must you force people to continue living if they don't want to?

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People who wish to end their lives must be of a sound mind and not afflicted with delusions or mental illness.

Again, why? Who cares?

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Hating the idea that they were born without consent isn't sufficient grounds to end your life unless they have another affliction that is tainting their mind.

Totalitarian. Fascist.

No, if I want to die, it shouldn't matter what my circumstances are. They're my business. If someone doesn't like it, tough. It's my life. I didn't choose to be born, and it's completely rational for someone to be upset about that. So if they want to kill themselves, give them the legal precedent to do so.

By the way, you look extremely disingenuous when you say stuff like this when just earlier, you were saying shit like, "If you want to kill yourself, go right ahead." But when it comes to giving people a fair chance to do that legally, you're against it. Hypocrite. Liar.

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Nice to see your reading comprehension goes down as your blood pressure goes up. To spell it out, read the above again.

I did.

Nothing changed.

It's not a matter of my reading comprehension. It's a matter of you being inarticulate.

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Oh, and I'd just like to thank you, Sandtrap, for not only having the patience to take a discussion like this seriously, but for presenting a wonderful example of how to converse with me. Not through slander or insults, but through rational insight. Thank you for that.

The irony is delicious

There is nothing ironic about it.

You insulted me, so I insulted you back. That's how it works.
Sandtrap did not ever insult me, so I never insulted him.

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You act like there is something I need to get over here

There very much is.

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Again with the platinum mad, this is really rather tiresome.

I meant every last thing that I said.

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Once again getting too wound up over some simple questions, the purpose isn't to determine whether you believe what you spout which you clearly do, but to follow through with the logic of whether you question your own beliefs, which thankfully you claim to do so.

I don't question my beliefs. I question other people about my beliefs. Again, I wouldn't subscribe to a philosophy that I didn't personally feel was logically sound. Even a little bit. The instant it starts seeming like bullshit, the instant I drop it from my mind, or at least, make some subtle alteration/variation of it. And thus far, no people have convinced me that having children isn't wrong. Zero.

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Anyway, good lord you get so emotional over a simple discussion on a forum.

The question of whether or not we should continue to exist is kinda the most important question EVER. You can't afford to be wrong. And if you are wrong, you should be treated harshly.

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Once more for highlighting it
Hypocrisy stage 1
Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 01:37:58 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on April 20, 2015, 11:43:19 AM
by the way, way to blame me for bringing the subject up when it actually wasn't me at all

i stated my opinion on the subject, which indeed was rooted in my philosophy, because why the fuck wouldn't it be
and then people started asking me questions about it

so i answered them
which sort of requires that i bring up anti-natalism

you're basically telling me that i should have never stated my opinion in this thread
to which i say, go fuck yourself, you totalitarian piece of shit
Hypocrisy stage 2
Quote from: Verbatim on April 20, 2015, 02:45:40 PM
Oh, and I'd just like to thank you, Sandtrap, for not only having the patience to take a discussion like this seriously, but for presenting a wonderful example of how to converse with me. Not through slander or insults, but through rational insight. Thank you for that.

Zero hypocrisy.

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My original query with you was regarding your apparently dour view of the lives of the disabled to which you of course started on about anti-natalism, hence this little chitchat.

Yeah, because recognizing that having a disability would suck is such a dour outlook.

Verbatim · April 22, 2015, 06:43:21 PM

Quote from: Voro 'Cinotai on April 20, 2015, 05:08:02 PM

BTFO

Standards for "btfo" are so low here.

Quote from: Plotmaster on April 22, 2015, 02:58:12 PM

Let us now discuss how much ass Dr. Mentalist kicked in this thread.

Exactly zero ass.

Nick McIntyre · April 22, 2015, 06:49:06 PM

Oh my God he's back.