"VEHEMENTLY RELIGIOUS, ANTI-GAY AND PRO-LIFE SITE RANDOMLY RECEIVES A DECADE OLD AND HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE TESTIMONY OF AN ANONYMOUS PERSON CLAIMING TO HAVE BEEN CONVERTED"

Don't make me laugh.

I love you Flee

Thank you Nick, but I'm afraid I'm already dating someone.

no one has to know

However. That shitty experience as a kid, stuck with me. I looked at it, and I told myself that I never wanted to generate that particular feeling in anybody. That bad feeling, or feelings.

As such I try my best for everybody around me.

And that's wonderful. I underwent the same thought process when I chose this philosophy, but I took it to the highest possible level, because it's the only level that speaks to me logically. I say the entire thing is fucked. I wouldn't impose life on anybody, and it's not even necessarily because of my own life. I look around and all I see are unhappy people pretending to be happy. Jaded people pretending to be interesting. In the first world, we're concerned about stupid shit, and in the third world, they're concerned about whether or not they'll wake up the next day with their head still attached to their body.

You try to do the best for the people around you, and the best thing you can do for an individual is to not force them into existence in the first place. No harm, no foul.

However, Verb, we come down to the reality of things. Suffering is a human construct. Derived from emotions and pain. I would argue, that much of what we construct as people, are illusions.

It's a sentient construct. I guarantee you, if you stick a fork in a cow's eye, he's not gonna like it. Animals suffer, too. That's a whole 'nother part of the life equation I've yet to even touch upon. Animals suffer just as much as humans do, if not more. And a lot of that suffering was brought on by our own hand, because we steal their energy in the form of food, even if we don't have to anymore. Even if we have alternatives. Just because of our own selfish desire.

Mhmmm good for him for making the right choice.

Now, I'm arguing barebones constants without the addition of human variables. Which is, inherently what you argue over. Which, are in reality, illusions and constructs.

They're the only constructs that give any life its meaning. I don't really have much interest in discussing a nihilistic universe where you can literally do anything and nothing will ever matter, because nihilism is just too stupid for me to discuss when we can instead discuss feeling things. You know, the only things that matter, which you've basically conceded.

Take a child. Raise him to kill. Teach him that killing is good. His perception, as a living entity, will give him pleasure to inflict suffering. That perception of his, is his reality. And it is only viewed as inherently evil or bad by us, because of our sense of conformity, like we talked about a while back.

I don't agree, though. While you may be able to find some people who only agree that killing is wrong because everyone else agrees that killing is wrong, I can make the argument that there are also a lot of people who are smart enough to think for themselves, logically, to determine that murder is wrong. And really, murder isn't inherently wrong. If someone's trying to rape your wife, you wouldn't try to kill him?... I think most people would, and I wouldn't fault them for it if they were successful.

Killing is only wrong, in my opinion, if they are innocent. If they don't deserve it. And 99.99% of people don't deserve to be killed. Oh, and you also need consent. Then it becomes assisted suicide, which, as you should know, I am all for.

That's the logical perspective.
Consent and fairness are the most important tenets of all ethics.

You're viewing suffering, as a point. Like it's a start point. When really, there are no points. Destruction, and creation, simply, are.

I'm viewing suffering as a realistic and inevitable part of the human condition. It's not a point, it's a prescription. You WILL endure some shit in your life if you are born. Physical, emotional, mental, what have you. Your loved ones will die, your pets will die, and it happens every day. By the thousands. I know these aren't pleasant thoughts, but if you really sat down and just contemplated the suffering that takes place, you would see that it really is off kilter just how much of it really occurs. Turn on the news and see how many innocent people got killed today. This isn't a world I probably would've personally chosen to live in.

IMaterials were used to create the atomic bomb. Materials, were destroyed, and used, in order to create, the atomic bomb. Which was then dropped on hiroshima, and destroyed it. The suffering of those people, was real. But on a fundamental level, every single atom that was ripped apart by the bomb went back into something. New life. New structures. Elements.

You don't think that's disgusting? Millions died to create more life, so that they can suffer and die, too. It just doesn't end. I find that revolting.

I'm not trying to say that suffering is all sunshine and bunnies. Lets face it. Pain, is pain. But happy, is also happy.

Happiness is shorter than pain and yet still equal. Take a prisoner. Put him in prison, in solitary for a year. Pure misery. One long, agonizing year in solitary.

And then release him. The happiness upon release, the re-experiencing of things he took for granted and missed, while although short, is tremendously powerful. So powerful that one year of solitary, while not being forgotten or washed away, is immidiately put into the background by said prisoner's sheer happiness.

I'd rather just be happy on principle. The fact that we have to endure some loss first before we can feel any happiness doesn't seem like a very good deal to me. Show me an example, besides touching tree bark, that gives us happiness without any strings attached. You're literally ONE step away from referring to life as a "gift" or some shit. The fact is, gifts don't come with any strings attached. You don't buy your friend a gift you don't think they'll enjoy. You wouldn't buy your friend something, and then say, "Here, take this. That'll be $50." It's like, yeah, some gift.

And in order to destroy something, there has to be something to be destroyed in the first place.

Precisely my argument in summation.

In order to destroy something, you have to create something.
Destroying things is a negative. Yet, all that is created will be destroyed.
The best way to avoid that is to create nothing at all.

We're unneeded.

In order to destroy something, you have to create something.
Destroying things is a negative. Yet, all that is created will be destroyed.
The best way to avoid that is to create nothing at all.

We're unneeded

Holy fuck you are the edgiest mother fucker I've ever seen.

Well duh, water is wet after all.

This is also common knowledge, and probably part of why nobody seems to take your anti-natalism dogma seriously. Not imposing it on anyone else would most likely include not banging on about it constantly, but I'm sure you can find a loophole that means it's fine to spread it as far and wide as possible.

You don't know what a dogma is if you think anti-natalism is dogma.

Not "banging on about it constantly" would be absolutely fucking retarded. I live in a society where 99.99% of people are WRONG from my perspective, and they are doing things that I find ethically ABHORRENT. Why the fuck wouldn't I "bang on" about it? You're a jackass.

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 20, 2015, 02:56:11 AM

Now, I'm arguing barebones constants without the addition of human variables. Which is, inherently what you argue over. Which, are in reality, illusions and constructs.

They're the only constructs that give any life its meaning. I don't really have much interest in discussing a nihilistic universe where you can literally do anything and nothing will ever matter, because nihilism is just too stupid for me to discuss when we can instead discuss feeling things. You know, the only things that matter, which you've basically conceded.

Quote

Take a child. Raise him to kill. Teach him that killing is good. His perception, as a living entity, will give him pleasure to inflict suffering. That perception of his, is his reality. And it is only viewed as inherently evil or bad by us, because of our sense of conformity, like we talked about a while back.

I don't agree, though. While you may be able to find some people who only agree that killing is wrong because everyone else agrees that killing is wrong, I can make the argument that there are also a lot of people who are smart enough to think for themselves, logically, to determine that murder is wrong. And really, murder isn't inherently wrong. If someone's trying to rape your wife, you wouldn't try to kill him?... I think most people would, and I wouldn't fault them for it if they were successful.

Killing is only wrong, in my opinion, if they are innocent. If they don't deserve it. And 99.99% of people don't deserve to be killed. Oh, and you also need consent. Then it becomes assisted suicide, which, as you should know, I am all for.

That's the logical perspective.
Consent and fairness are the most important tenets of all ethics.

Quote

You're viewing suffering, as a point. Like it's a start point. When really, there are no points. Destruction, and creation, simply, are.

I'm viewing suffering as a realistic and inevitable part of the human condition. It's not a point, it's a prescription. You WILL endure some shit in your life if you are born. Physical, emotional, mental, what have you. Your loved ones will die, your pets will die, and it happens every day. By the thousands. I know these aren't pleasant thoughts, but if you really sat down and just contemplated the suffering that takes place, you would see that it really is off kilter just how much of it really occurs. Turn on the news and see how many innocent people got killed today. This isn't a world I probably would've personally chosen to live in.

Quote

IMaterials were used to create the atomic bomb. Materials, were destroyed, and used, in order to create, the atomic bomb. Which was then dropped on hiroshima, and destroyed it. The suffering of those people, was real. But on a fundamental level, every single atom that was ripped apart by the bomb went back into something. New life. New structures. Elements.

You don't think that's disgusting? Millions died to create more life, so that they can suffer and die, too. It just doesn't end. I find that revolting.

Quote

I'm not trying to say that suffering is all sunshine and bunnies. Lets face it. Pain, is pain. But happy, is also happy.

Happiness is shorter than pain and yet still equal. Take a prisoner. Put him in prison, in solitary for a year. Pure misery. One long, agonizing year in solitary.

And then release him. The happiness upon release, the re-experiencing of things he took for granted and missed, while although short, is tremendously powerful. So powerful that one year of solitary, while not being forgotten or washed away, is immidiately put into the background by said prisoner's sheer happiness.

I'd rather just be happy on principle. The fact that we have to endure some loss first before we can feel any happiness doesn't seem like a very good deal to me. Show me an example, besides touching tree bark, that gives us happiness without any strings attached. You're literally ONE step away from referring to life as a "gift" or some shit. The fact is, gifts don't come with any strings attached. You don't buy your friend a gift you don't think they'll enjoy. You wouldn't buy your friend something, and then say, "Here, take this. That'll be $50." It's like, yeah, some gift.

Quote

And in order to destroy something, there has to be something to be destroyed in the first place.

Precisely my argument in summation.

In order to destroy something, you have to create something.
Destroying things is a negative. Yet, all that is created will be destroyed.
The best way to avoid that is to create nothing at all.

We're unneeded.

On the flipside, you could say, that even though anything ever created will be destroyed, anything destroyed will create something else. As I said. No origin point. It's a back and forth exchange.

And, like I said or tried to, anyway, taking a step back into morals and emotion since we obviously don't operate on a universal perception of things.

You are absolutely right. There is a cost to everything. Which again, comes back to universal functions. In order to understand happiness, you have to understand misery. The two need each other to function properly. Let's be really broad here, and lump anything vaguely associated with negative and positive human emotions into just that.

You're living in, arguably, an environment that you enjoy. It could be called your version of paradise. You sit on the beach all day, sloth around, and just take it easy. All of a sudden, out of that happiness, you'll grow restless. Anxious. You'll want to move, or do something. Out of that happiness you'll start to feel a little miserable from all the stagnation.

So, no, I'm not disgusted by it because I understand the nature of it. Our universe operates that way on every level. There's no escape even if you wanted to because we're bound by the laws of our reality. You realize that right?

So, I choose to pick my apparent side of things. I try to be as decent as I can. I understand there will be pain and I understand that depending on what I choose, I still have control. That pain will hurt which in turn, could, make me outwardly hurt something else. Or, I could turn it around. I could try to take arguably the best road for everybody around me and myself.

And, as you talked about that particular infection. Of course that's terrible. To be born and then infected with a parasite whose sole purpose is to burrow into your head? That's the definition of terrible.

It's so terrible that I wouldn't put it past somebody, somewhere on the planet, who was trying to stop that. Trying to create a vaccine or something to fight it. And maybe one day they'll have a breakthrough, and that infection will be slowly but surely, stomped out.

Frankly, what I find funny about all this, is me and you.

I think we've similar thought processes. I think we've similar experiences. And yet here's the two of us. Easily, our respective stances on things are fundamental opposites. Opposing forces and ideals on either side of a scale.

So, it all comes down to the simple end. You can't have one without the other. That's life. That's the universe. You take the best you can from it and try to make the best. Pain's just an obstacle in the way. It's not pleasant. Never will be.

But it can only affect you for so long until you choose not to let it and move on.

As I said. I think you'd be a riot to sit down and have a coffee with.

Quote from: Verbatim

In order to destroy something, you have to create something.
Destroying things is a negative. Yet, all that is created will be destroyed.
The best way to avoid that is to create nothing at all.

We're unneeded

Holy fuck you are the edgiest mother fucker I've ever seen.

>low tier b8
>expects it to work
>doesn't realize that he will be seen as an idiot by everyone else
Try harder, furrfag/elitefag - I don't even know

Quote from: Desty on April 20, 2015, 12:01:45 PM

Quote from: Voro 'Cinotai on April 20, 2015, 08:52:56 AM

Quote from: Verbatim

In order to destroy something, you have to create something.
Destroying things is a negative. Yet, all that is created will be destroyed.
The best way to avoid that is to create nothing at all.

We're unneeded

Holy fuck you are the edgiest mother fucker I've ever seen.

>low tier b8
>expects it to work
>doesn't realize that he will be seen as an idiot by everyone else
Try harder, furrfag/elitefag - I don't even know

Go back to the Flood where you belong.

Says the troll/retard

Pick one, but either one is bad, so you lose.

So are you saying your opinion on life in general is different in some way? Or are you just assuming that my opinion on life only extends to myself? You can't have it both ways there.

For one, my opinions on how I live my life vary significantly from how I view life in general or the lives of others.

Same here. This is the philosophy. It's not a discussion of our individual lives. That's anecdotal and generally useless. The philosophy is about the human condition as a whole. It's not a personal decision not to have kids--it's the logical statement that having children is wrong.

Of course because the idea that an entire species will voluntarily wipe itself out is equatable to the prospect of treating all men equally.

http://sep7agon.net/index.php?topic=34821.0

Yes, it is equatable. PERFECTLY equatable. But only in the sense that they both represent a VAST and controversial outlook on life. Yes, the idea of freeing the slaves used to be extremely controversial. Just as the notion of voluntary human extinction is today. The fact that you think I'm trying to say that slavery = natalism is so obnoxiously fucking stupid.

Imposing something that can be taken away easily is hardly that great of an imposition, if someone grows up to find themselves wishing they were never born and that said thoughts aren't simply the result of mental illness then they can always find a way to exit this plane of existence.

Fuck. You.

I've had this fucking argument so many goddamn times, and you're going to pull this WEAK shit.

No, suicide is not an easy option, you dumb CUNT. By the time people can even make the rational decision to kill themselves, they've already likely grown highly attached to everyone in their lives, and even though they want to kill themselves, now they have a ton of pressure to live, simply because it would be a goddamn tragedy. It would fuck up the lives of everyone who cared about them. So no, it's not an easy fucking option.

Not to mention, euthanasia is ILLEGAL basically everywhere. You can't just walk into a clinic and ask for suicide pills, it doesn't fucking work like that. People resort to gruesome, grotesque, painful, inhumane methods when they could instead opt for a graceful exit. Except the state won't allow for it. So we have all these fucking hoops we have to jump over. And for you to be this moderator of a forum, standing above everyone else, being this "model citizen" of the forum, and this is the shit you SPEW on the fucking Internet? "Don't like life? Just kill yourself. It's that easy."

Fuck you, you glib cunt. FUCK you.

Impose, read the second definition. A clear discussion about antinatalism is fine, it's whenever you drag it up in unrelated topics that it becomes tiresome. That is banging on about it.

Abortion is huge. Of COURSE my CORE FUCKING PHILOSOPHICAL BELIEF is going to be brought up.

Get the FUCK over it.

Well duh, it doesn't shove you back up into your mother's womb

And unless it does that, suicide isn't a good option. It doesn't solve the problem. At all.

At.

All.

A slave who commits suicide will never end slavery. You can't end slavery if you're fucking DEAD.

It's not slander, it's an accurate label.

Then "worthless cunt" would be an accurate label for you.

A set of beliefs that is firmly entrenched in an individual who will not accept any flaws pointed out or concede them, you don't believe they are flaws so you don't see them as flaws. That's dogmatic.

There is a nice easy litmus test for this though.

1. Do you think your philosophy is correct?
2. Why do you think it is correct?
3. Do you think it could be wrong?
4. If not, why not?

1. Yes, obviously. I wouldn't fucking believe in it if I thought it was wrong, would I? Could you be more inarticulate?
2. Because I have been presented with no better alternatives.
3. It's possible. Hence why I have discussions.
4. If I didn't think I could be wrong, I would never have discussions about it.

Why would I waste time trying to prove people wrong if I knew that I was right?

to be fair, some might argue that abortions are genocidal by nature

by the way, way to blame me for bringing the subject up when it actually wasn't me at all

i stated my opinion on the subject, which indeed was rooted in my philosophy, because why the fuck wouldn't it be
and then people started asking me questions about it

so i answered them
which sort of requires that i bring up anti-natalism

you're basically telling me that i should have never stated my opinion in this thread
to which i say, go fuck yourself, you totalitarian piece of shit

You are absolutely right. There is a cost to everything. Which again, comes back to universal functions. In order to understand happiness, you have to understand misery. The two need each other to function properly. Let's be really broad here, and lump anything vaguely associated with negative and positive human emotions into just these.

You're living in, arguably, an environment that you enjoy. It could be called your version of paradise. You sit on the beach all day, sloth around, and just take it easy. All of a sudden, out of that happiness, you'll grow restless. Anxious. You'll want to move, or do something. Out of that happiness you'll start to feel a little miserable from all the stagnation.

Well, not to be pedantic, but that wouldn't be my paradise, then, would it? In my paradise, not only would it be sublime perfection, but it would be just that. Sublime perfection. You wouldn't get weary of the perfection, because that would be imperfect. That's the ideal world I try to illustrate. My ideal world is not bounded by the hedonistic treadmill, because the hedonistic treadmill is, by its very nature, a flawed concept. See what I mean?

Anti-natalism is the rejection of the reality we live in. I don't accept this reality that contains so much of which I despise, and I hate how the negative needs to exist for there to be any notion of positive.

If I could bend reality to my will, I would make it so everything would be positive, always.
I would eliminate boredom and malaise.

So, no, I'm not disgusted by it because I understand the nature of it. Our universe operates that way on every level. There's no escape even if you wanted to because we're bound by the laws of our reality. You realize that right?

Of course. But at the same time, that's sort of false. Let's say the human race goes extinct.

There's no more people to suffer. That can only be a good thing. You might say that that seems kind of empty and sad, but look at it this way. Take Mars. There are no life forms on Mars. We don't weep over this fact, do we? Does anyone honestly care that there's no life on Mars, or any other planets in the solar system? Not really. Especially not the universe. The universe couldn't be any more indifferent. The universe does not weep over the fact that there's no life on Mars, so it wouldn't weep if there was no life on Earth, either.

While suffering is bad, and pleasure is indeed good,
the absence of suffering is also good.

The absence of pleasure?
That's not bad. Not necessarily.

This is called Benatar's asymmetry, and it's one of the best anti-natalist ideas written in print, in his book, Better Never To Have Been. It's a dry-ass read, however. I don't recommend it. But the asymmetry argument is a wonderful contribution.

I think we've similar thought processes. I think we've similar experiences. And yet here's the two of us. Easily, our respective stances on things are fundamental opposites. Opposing forces and ideals on either side of a scale.

What you haven't really done so far, however, is attack the central argument of my philosophy. Obviously, you're not an anti-natalist, so you believe that it's okay to have kids. I mean, there really is no in-between, neutral position, is there? Either it's okay to have kids, or it's not. Being indifferent is like being for it.

What I'd like to see from you is an attempt to justify childbirth. Why should the species to continue? What great purpose do we still need to fulfill here on Earth? And why can't that purpose be to quietly subside?

So, it all comes down to the simple end. You can't have one without the other. That's life. That's the universe. You take the best you can from it and try to make the best. Pain's just an obstacle in the way. It's not pleasant. Never will be.

But it can only affect you for so long until you choose not to let it and move on.

As I said. I think you'd be a riot to sit down and have a coffee with.

Eh... Maybe if it's decaff.