A pro-choice medical student witnesses an abortion

 
Verbatim
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I'd like to add that wanting to die isn't necessarily tied to mental instability; there are states in the US that allow euthanasia so long as the person is making the decision sound of mind.
How would that sort of thing be judged, anyway? Because, in my opinion, nobody is "sound of mind". What does that even mean, realistically?


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Because we haven't created a successor race yet, evolution is about achieving greater and greater forms so for the human race - one of the most promising results of evolution so far, you know with sentience and all that - to wipe itself out without at least leaving a positive legacy in the universe is selfish to the other beings that live in it.
And you accuse me of "mental gymnastics"... Jesus Christ. How could it possibly be selfish to run out the human race voluntarily? What's selfish is to impose life for your bizarre (and futile) ideal of "creating the ultimate race". Because we're going to fail.
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Hell just Earth as an example, what kind of species rapes the bejeesus out of the planet and then decides to wipe itself out without cleaning up it's mess.
That's my argument, though. Anti-natalism is the mop that will clean up the final mess on planet Earth. Really, I'm also an efilist--I don't just think humans should go extinct. I think all life should go extinct. I'm not here to tell you how we could do that--I'm just trying to spread the idea and let people know that it's a good idea. If all life goes extinct, it doesn't matter what we leave behind. There's no one left to care.
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I've said for a while now, if humanity can create a race of sentient machines to look after planets in a far better manner than we do then we can all die out and I wouldn't really care. Completing that goal isn't likely to happen anytime soon, so prematurely encouraging extinction is wrong.
It's not likely to happen any time ever.
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Or because they don't want to live anymore. You forgot that really basic part that no one else would have ever missed.
Which falls under mental illness.
According to...?

Whoever it is, they're wrong. And even if they're right, who cares?
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M.
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Why? Why must you force people to continue living if they don't want to?
Because it is immoral to let someone die when they can be treated, forcing people to continue living is exactly what A&E do for attempted suicides or what sectioning does to the severely disturbed who frequently make attempts on their own life. A treatable mental illness causes them to wish to die/kill themselves, so just standing idly by and letting people jump/overdose/slice down the road rather than getting them the therapy that treats that mindset is wrong.
Why? You just restated your shitty point. If someone wants to die, why is it wrong to let them die? Because you think living is so much cooler? Why should they give a fuck about what you think?

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Someone who has a mental illness is not in the right state of mind to be making decisions over their own mortality,
Who.

Cares.

Why does that matter.
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The illness can be treated and then the wish to die has disappeared/receded, mental illness is not a terminal disease and people should not be dying because of it.
You can make these bogus arguments (you're pretending as though the only people who want to die are ones who are already severely ill, which is false), but it has nothing to do with our rights. Regardless of these shitty emotional appeals you're making, you should still have the right to kill yourself.
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The families of the patient care, their friends and wider social circles. Their doctors and shrinks care too, letting someone kill themselves because you didn't give them the necessary treatment is one of the worst possible failings of a medical professional.
Unless they want to die. In which case, it's completely justified. If someone is suffering, and they don't want to live anymore, end it.

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Thank you.
And you wonder why I lash out and get fucking pissed off at you.

What you're saying is evil.

E-V-I-L
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Wrong, it does matter. It's the responsibility of MHC workers to make sure that people afflicted with something like depression don't simply kill themselves
Then they have an evil responsibility.

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Which in my book covers 99.99% of people with that sort of mindset, leaving room for the abnormals as always but people who want to die are either mentally ill or are trying to escape something like shame/restoring their honour etc. Someone who wishes they were never born and genuinely wants to die is mentally ill.
1. No they're not.
2. Even if they are, it doesn't matter. It will never matter.

People who want to die should have the right to die. It makes perfect sense that someone might be dissatisfied with the fact that they were forced into life by two fucktards.

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At times, sure. I'm not a perfect linguistic genius, but I'd say it's better than spamming cUNT whenever you run into an argument.
Good thing I haven't done that. Which leaves you being incredibly inarticulate.
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lol
Nice refutation.
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So you were actually butthurt over this? Nice.
Glad to know my reports of your posts have been completely justified. Piece of shit.
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I wonder why that is then, because I've seen plenty of people present sound arguments to you in the past and they all got the same dismissals.
Maybe because they're FUCKING WRONG.

If someone is wrong, you argue with them. I'm not going to fucking give up my philosophy just because a group of dumbfucks think I'm wrong. No, I think you're wrong, and I don't think I've received a single sound argument yet. Not a single person has been able to adequately answer the question, "why should the human race continue"?

And you had one of the shittiest answers yet.
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And with people who live in the real world, existential angst tends to rank pretty low on their list of priorities. I'm pretty sure people can afford to be wrong over that, because when it's compared to things like securing a future for their families or their own success in life people will not really give a shit about whether their own existence is morally justifiable or if having children and grandchildren is an affront to one particular type of philosophy.
Which makes them all fucktards. Yes, it does.

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Zero hypocrisy.
lol, sure.
ZERO hypocrisy.

You insulted me first. You should be banned.
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why highlight the disabled to make your point?
BECAUSE ONE IN FIVE PEOPLE HAS SOME TYPE OF DEBILITY.

THAT'S REALITY.

I'm obviously going to bring up examples of reality that might OFFEND you, because they're REALITY. This should DETER you from ever wanting to have children, because you shouldn't want to impose CANCER, or anything else that's going to make them either an intense sufferer, or a complete loser for the rest of their lives. You SHOULDN'T want to impose that on ANYBODY.
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Justifying your ideology by using the infirm as a reason not to 'risk' having children is just downright scummy.
I really don't fucking see how. Kindly demonstrate how illustrating a concept of reality is "scummy".

PEOPLE ARE BORN WITH CRIPPLING DISEASES.

Would you appreciate being born with a crippling fucking disease? I don't fucking think so.
Let me take all of your money and gamble it away, and see how you like it.

tl;dr, don't try and raise a family because you have a small risk of giving your children diseases.

Well shit, thank God we have treatments so they can continue living happy lives if such a thing were to occur.


 
 
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Verbatim
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tl;dr, don't try and raise a family because you have a small risk of giving your children diseases.
1 in 5.

That is COLOSSAL.

And it's not JUST diseases, asshole. Everything about life is pretty much just shit.
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Well shit, thank God we have treatments so they can continue living happy lives if such a thing were to occur.
Good luck curing cancer, AIDS, diabetes, elephantiasis, harlequin ichthyosis, etc. etc. etc.

And again, that's not even touching upon things that'll ensure your kid's life will suck that aren't diseases. Most children are born in fucking poverty. Some are born homosexual in a culture that fucking HATES homosexuals. The horror just doesn't fucking end at diseases. It just happens to be a very poginant example.


 
 
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<.<
I'm just going to cut this down a bit, because I don't really feel inclined to spend more time over nitpicking. Call it whatever you like, I really just don't care for another round of quote pyramids over the same old shit.

I think we will reach the singularity, if you'd rather see the human race and all life wipe itself out before that point then power to you. That's idealistic on both fronts, you want to see mass extinction and I'd like to see a race of AI created, neither of which are particularly likely to happen in a natural lifespan. Have at it.

The part I want to address more clearly is regarding mental illness, mostly because that's one of the few things in this discussion I genuinely care about as opposed to just kill time discussing.

As it has been pointed out, there are people who wish to die that are not mentally ill. Typically that would include terminally ill patients, in countries where euthanasia is legal that is usually how it works. The person requesting it has to be assessed to show that they are of a sound mind i.e not Clinically Depressed, then it can go ahead after ethics panels/committees and the like.

The reason that people who are not of a sound mind, in the medical/legal sense, are not allowed to be euthanised is because they are not making an informed choice - their mental illness is affecting their judgement and so any choice over their own mortality is suspended until they are shown to be healthy again. Then when they are treated/cured, if they still wished to die it would be more likely to proceed.

The part where you said that MHCs have an evil responsibility though, you think that preventing harm from occurring to the vulnerable or those around them is evil? That's what they do, it's not some One flew over the cuckoo's nest malarkey. People who are in danger of harming others or themselves as a result of hallucinations, delusions, paranoia or suicidal depression (Not exhaustive) shouldn't be left to carry out these actions, you see cases like the one in London a few months ago where a schizophrenic man stuck a pair of scissors into another man's chest as a result of his delusions. The guy died and the patient is now committed indefinitely, is it evil to force people like him to receive treatment? Which would have saved the other man's life and perhaps led to Hunter being returned to a normal enough state to function in society.

I'd like to add that wanting to die isn't necessarily tied to mental instability; there are states in the US that allow euthanasia so long as the person is making the decision sound of mind.
How would that sort of thing be judged, anyway? Because, in my opinion, nobody is "sound of mind". What does that even mean, realistically?
Depression Inventories are an example, albeit ones in much more depth than these
http://www.humber.nhs.uk/Downloads/Services/IAPT%20ER/Outcome%20measures%20questionnaire.pdf
A full clinical assessment can last 1-2 hours, there are various questionnaires and inventories along with diagnostic criteria from the DSM/ICD to go by as well. So in the same way that a GP would run a battery of blood tests a Psychologist or Psychiatrist can run a battery of Mental Health tests to determine if a patient has any issues/what they might be/would they affect their state of mind.


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Breaking this into parts for now since mobile typing sucks.

tl;dr, don't try and raise a family because you have a small risk of giving your children diseases.

1.  1 in 5.

That is COLOSSAL.

2.  And it's not JUST diseases, asshole. Everything about life is pretty much just shit.
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Well shit, thank God we have treatments so they can continue living happy lives if such a thing were to occur.

3.  Good luck curing cancer, AIDS, diabetes, elephantiasis, harlequin ichthyosis, etc. etc. etc.

4.  And again, that's not even touching upon things that'll ensure your kid's life will suck that aren't diseases. Most children are born in fucking poverty.

5.  Some are born homosexual in a culture that fucking HATES homosexuals. The horror just doesn't fucking end at diseases. It just happens to be a very poginant example.

1.  Stats pls

2.  Glad to see my reports against you are justified.

3.  Well with science and medicine/technology advancing, we may yet get to see some form of cute for cancer, but for now we do have the technology and hemp oils to help relieve the battles with cancer.

As for diabetes, yes it sucks.  I am at risk of it because there's a family history of it, but I'm going through life fine.  My biological mom has diabetes, but she still goes through life happy and with a smile on her face.  Several classmates I knew have diabetes, but they still remain optimistic.

4.  That's why we have ways for people to try and get themselves out of poverty, if they have the drove to do so:  government assistance (though the people that do nothing but leech off the system should be cut off entirely ), schools that are widely available for children can get the education they need to get jobs that get them out of poverty, etc.

5.  Society is progressing towards being more tolerant of homosexuals, even of they do not agree with how they are.  Yes there are zealous bigots against them, there always will be, but as a whole society's tolerance is increasing compared to, fuck, even 10 years ago.


 
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I'm just going to cut this down a bit, because I don't really feel inclined to spend more time over nitpicking. Call it whatever you like, I really just don't care for another round of quote pyramids over the same old shit.
I'll take it as a concession. You said a lot of really fucking dumb shit, and frankly, I would be embarrassed to be you. To say that I can't cite "the infirm" as evidence to suggest that life is serious shit, and that you probably don't have any right to impose it on anybody, just because you think that's "scummy" for some invisible reason, is absolutely preposterous.

I wouldn't wanna have to sit there and defend myself either, if I had said something that stupid.
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The part I want to address more clearly is regarding mental illness, mostly because that's one of the few things in this discussion I genuinely care about as opposed to just kill time discussing.
Wonderful, because it's actually the part of the discussion that is not only in my least interest, it's also the furthest from the original topic. At least with anti-natalism, I could get away with it, but this is just a little bit too far gone, don't you think, Mr. Mod?
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As it has been pointed out, there are people who wish to die that are not mentally ill. Typically that would include terminally ill patients, in countries where euthanasia is legal that is usually how it works.
Yeah, in the four countries where it's legal. Let's not act like it's this widespread thing, because it's not.
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The reason that people who are not of a sound mind, in the medical/legal sense, are not allowed to be euthanised is because they are not making an informed choice - their mental illness is affecting their judgement and so any choice over their own mortality is suspended until they are shown to be healthy again. Then when they are treated/cured, if they still wished to die it would be more likely to proceed.
If we euthanized someone whose judgement was affected by the disease, I really don't think it would be that big of a tragedy. Especially because most people with terminal illnesses are essentially at the end of their lives anyway. They've probably had it. So to have this mommy state kind of thing where the mommy state is gonna tell you that your life is worth prolonging doesn't sound very appealing to me.
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The part where you said that MHCs have an evil responsibility though, you think that preventing harm
Preventing harm? Are you familiar with the adage, "death heals all wounds"? I really don't see how prolonging one's suffering, which is essentially these people's job, is, in any way, preventing harm.
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those around them
Look, even if one of my loved ones honestly and genuinely wanted to die, do you think I'd try to stand in their way? Well, maybe. But your choice to die should be no one's business but your own. It would be rather selfish of me to say that my loved ones have to live to sate my interests, because I want to have them around. That's a little bit selfish.

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People who are in danger of harming others or themselves as a result of hallucinations, delusions, paranoia
And this has anything to do with the right to die? No, obviously, I only think part of what they do is evil. Making decisions for other people without their say-so tends to be pretty evil. Do most people want to live? Yeah. Do most people want to be operated on if they are injured? Yeah. But if there's one person who says he wants to end his life, I say give him that courtesy, regardless of whether he is of "sound mind" or not. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who have said something like that on their death bed, but managed to pull through, and then they looked back and said, "Wow, I must have been crazy for wanting to die."

But if you asked them if they'd like to relive that horror? You'd probably get an interesting result.
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you see cases like the one in London a few months ago where a schizophrenic man stuck a pair of scissors into another man's chest as a result of his delusions. The guy died and the patient is now committed indefinitely, is it evil to force people like him to receive treatment?
Bla bla bla. Again, that's not the subject. I don't think I ever said that everything they do is evil.
Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 12:13:56 PM by Verbatim


 
Verbatim
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1.  Stats pls
http://www.thekimfoundation.org/html/about_mental_ill/statistics.html

This is common knowledge, by the way. This shouldn't be news to you.
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3.  Well with science and medicine/technology advancing, we may yet get to see some form of cute for cancer, but for now we do have the technology and hemp oils to help relieve the battles with cancer.
Which doesn't justify imposing life on children.
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I'm going through life fine.
I don't care. It's not about you. It's about the future generations who will be born as a result of ignorant stupidity. Just because you think you're "going through life fine" (you're probably a 20-something, if that, so you know absolutely nothing about how shitty life can really get), doesn't give you the right to impose it on anybody else.

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4.  That's why we have ways for people to try and get themselves out of poverty
They shouldn't be having children if they're in poverty to BEGIN WITH. No fucking shit.
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5.  Society is progressing towards being more tolerant of homosexuals
Slowly. Imagine this: There are still racists in America. People who want the South to "rise again". They exist. The KKK is still in formation, as much of a joke as they are.

You can't escape bigotry.


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1.  Stats pls
http://www.thekimfoundation.org/html/about_mental_ill/statistics.html

This is common knowledge, by the way. This shouldn't be news to you.
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3.  Well with science and medicine/technology advancing, we may yet get to see some form of cute for cancer, but for now we do have the technology and hemp oils to help relieve the battles with cancer.
Which doesn't justify imposing life on children.
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I'm going through life fine.
I don't care. It's not about you. It's about the future generations who will be born as a result of ignorant stupidity. Just because you think you're "going through life fine" (you're probably a 20-something, if that, so you know absolutely nothing about how shitty life can really get), doesn't give you the right to impose it on anybody else.

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4.  That's why we have ways for people to try and get themselves out of poverty
They shouldn't be having children if they're in poverty to BEGIN WITH. No fucking shit.
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5.  Society is progressing towards being more tolerant of homosexuals
Slowly. Imagine this: There are still racists in America. People who want the South to "rise again". They exist. The KKK is still in formation, as much of a joke as they are.

You can't escape bigotry.

1.  I usually ask for stats so people can back their shit up, which I thank you for by the way.

2.  So a world with better resources to help people with their ailments means we shouldn't have children.   K.

3.  Please don't tell me that I don't know how shitty life can get. I was born with one working ear which threatens to blow out as well every single day, a promise of back problems for life, had close friends and family die around me,  almost committed suicide, and will experience financial troubles, at least for a while,  when I move.  And I still go through life with a smile on my face.

4.  Things happen, like the market crash.   You could be fine one days, next thing you know, your savings and bank account shrinking substantially,  if not completely (and yes, I do know about the idiots that do have children while being poor.  However, they want to start a family.  Either that or have a need to continue their family tree, idk )

5.  Of course you can't escape bigotry.  Like I said, it will always exist. But now they're just a small, but very loud minority.  They can't do shit .


 
 
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<.<
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The part I want to address more clearly is regarding mental illness, mostly because that's one of the few things in this discussion I genuinely care about as opposed to just kill time discussing.
Wonderful, because it's actually the part of the discussion that is not only in my least interest, it's also the furthest from the original topic. At least with anti-natalism, I could get away with it, but this is just a little bit too far gone, don't you think, Mr. Mod?

Suit yourself then, and yeah this is heading in a different direction. The intention being to make a new thread after this if you were interested, but apparently not so I'm done after this reply.

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The reason that people who are not of a sound mind, in the medical/legal sense, are not allowed to be euthanised is because they are not making an informed choice - their mental illness is affecting their judgement and so any choice over their own mortality is suspended until they are shown to be healthy again. Then when they are treated/cured, if they still wished to die it would be more likely to proceed.
If we euthanized someone whose judgement was affected by the disease, I really don't think it would be that big of a tragedy.
Now I really am done with this.
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Especially because most people with terminal illnesses are essentially at the end of their lives anyway. They've probably had it. So to have this mommy state kind of thing where the mommy state is gonna tell you that your life is worth prolonging doesn't sound very appealing to me.
Which is why euthanising the terminally ill isn't a big problem, euthanising people who are not terminally ill but have a mental illness is.

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The part where you said that MHCs have an evil responsibility though, you think that preventing harm
Preventing harm? Are you familiar with the adage, "death heals all wounds"? I really don't see how prolonging one's suffering, which is essentially these people's job, is, in any way, preventing harm.
I'm not even going to bother with this one, the best way to prevent harm is not to start killing all your patients to ease their suffering.

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those around them
Look, even if one of my loved ones honestly and genuinely wanted to die, do you think I'd try to stand in their way? Well, maybe. But your choice to die should be no one's business but your own. It would be rather selfish of me to say that my loved ones have to live to sate my interests, because I want to have them around. That's a little bit selfish.
Wanting people to live for your own wishes is selfish, wanting to make sure that strangers do not kill themselves and cause strife for those they leave behind is not.

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People who are in danger of harming others or themselves as a result of hallucinations, delusions, paranoia
And this has anything to do with the right to die? No, obviously, I only think part of what they do is evil. Making decisions for other people without their say-so tends to be pretty evil. Do most people want to live? Yeah. Do most people want to be operated on if they are injured? Yeah. But if there's one person who says he wants to end his life, I say give him that courtesy, regardless of whether he is of "sound mind" or not. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who have said something like that on their death bed, but managed to pull through, and then they looked back and said, "Wow, I must have been crazy for wanting to die."

But if you asked them if they'd like to relive that horror? You'd probably get an interesting result.
They are people who are not of sound mind, their judgement is impaired by their illness in the same way that someone who is under the influence is considered impaired in judgement. Different types of impairment, but impairment nonetheless.

I think you would get the same result for asking anyone if they wanted to go through the pain of terminal illness, people who are terminally ill and have sound judgement, which is the vast majority of cases (as rare as they are anyway) given how the proportions of judgement affecting mental illnesses appear in the population are really quite low. If someone has terminal illness, they should be allowed to die if the doctors have determined that there is nothing more they can do for them that kind of goes without question, it is different for those who are not terminally ill and wish to die - that has to be assessed for mental illness. If they are physically and mentally healthy and they wish for euthanasia, I could see the argument for allowing it.

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you see cases like the one in London a few months ago where a schizophrenic man stuck a pair of scissors into another man's chest as a result of his delusions. The guy died and the patient is now committed indefinitely, is it evil to force people like him to receive treatment?
Bla bla bla. Again, that's not the subject. I don't think I ever said that everything they do is evil.

Anyway, I'm done with this now. Call it a victory if you like, but I have better things to be doing with my time than this. If you do wish to discuss euthanasia and the mentally ill, you can make another thread or I can. Otherwise feel free to go back to the other discussions ITT.


 
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2.  So a world with better resources to help people with their ailments means we shouldn't have children.   K.
I don't think I said anything remotely similar to that. You don't need to have kids to make the world a better place. You just don't.
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3.  Please don't tell me that I don't know how shitty life can get.
But you don't. Clearly, if you're still smiling at the end of the day, you don't know.
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However, they want to start a family.  Either that or have a need to continue their family tree, idk )
"Wanting to start a family" and "continuing their family tree" are not good enough reasons to impose life on children. Far from it. Those are selfish reasons.
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5.  Of course you can't escape bigotry.  Like I said, it will always exist. But now they're just a small, but very loud minority.  They can't do shit .
And yet countless minorities are often the brunt of all sorts of abuse. Racial profiling is still extremely prevalent in modern society, and the reason is because people are fucking racist. Don't tell me they can't do shit, because they can.
Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 12:54:08 PM by Verbatim


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I'd like to add that wanting to die isn't necessarily tied to mental instability; there are states in the US that allow euthanasia so long as the person is making the decision sound of mind.
How would that sort of thing be judged, anyway? Because, in my opinion, nobody is "sound of mind". What does that even mean, realistically?

Out in the field of EMS, it typically means making sure the patient is alert and oriented by 4 (A/Ox4). This is done by when you see medical staff or medics/EMTs/etc ask a patient their name, where they are, what's going on, and what time/year/date it is. Person, Place, Time, Situation or Event. If the person is not A/Ox4 they are usually considered to have an altered mental status and cannot competently make decisions for themselves, like signing to accept or refuse treatment. I'm sure that it gets a little more in depth depending on the circumstances and for medical professionals higher up the food chain.


 
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All this banter back and forth. Interesting thought material, at least. But one last point to be made Verb, on thinking about it, just today. But I don't want to say this last point here, without first, asking you.

What is, arguably, and without a doubt, the reason you're here?

Why are you still here, what's your goal in life, and why do you keep going? What gives you the motivation to get up and do whatever it is that you choose to do?

Don't look at this as an attack because it's not. Don't look at it as bait only for the sake of me taking everything apart and countering it. I'd just like to ask, first, before I say anything here.



 
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Was going to wait for your answer on things Verb. But stuff doesn't stick round in my head for long. So here we go.

I asked you what your particular purpose was, your goals and your reasons, because any answer would likely be self centered and therefore selfish or tingeing on it. I want to do this, I want to do that, I want friends etc etc. Saying I want to have kids, or I don't want to have kids, is selfish because it's only ever a decision made in the interest of the person making it.

We, as a species are selfish to many, many varying shades of degrees.

Now, what's really important. This is not an insult. Because it includes me, you, and psych. Regarding our philosophies. They're just that. Philospohies. I belief, an idea. However. All three of ours, while being possiblities, while having the potential to happen, have no bearing in reality because of their great distance.

Rough math, assuming most members of this site are in their 20's, the majority of us have 60 years left in us if we're going by the male average of 80 years. Even though in 60 years time, things will have changed, those philosphies, those quaint daydreams, will not be in reach.

As such, they don't have any grounding in reality. Which therefore means your particular philsophy, in particular Verb, is self defeatist and pointless. And potentially, harmful to yourself. I'm sure, you can't argue against the merits of having a partner with you. Pleasant company.

Which would most likely be a woman who is one of two things. Infertile, or aesexual. Reproductive drives in women are rather powerful, and, rightly so when they're around someone they care about and hold affection for. Even somebody who can't have kids might consider adopting.

So, that leaves you the potential for trouble. Your philosphy will shunt you up a brick wall and you'll either move or you won't. Not moving, will result in fights. Breakups. Cheerful things.

And second. Let's say the cards land in your favor and you meet somebody who jumps on board with your philosophy. Then what? You two live your lives, then you keel over. Your philosphy lacks something Verb. The ability to create paradigms.

How has any belief grown powerful over the centuries? The bible, for instance. Paradigms, installed into children. The best way to expand any belief into any real sense of power or magnitude, is through kids. Raising them by an example, installing a paradigm into them when they're young makes said belief almost unshakable and unbreakable.

So, as such, your belief, Verb, is what I'll just say is a couch potato philosphy. You can't do anything with it. It can't raise kids with raised values to carry on a silent legacy perpetrated by family lines. It can't convince everybody in the world, unless it turned to brute force, which would render it oppressive. It can't, and will never leave any outstanding mark on the world.

And in 60 years time, you'll be dead. I asked you what your particular drive was, because I was curious if you took to talking about your philosophy with others. If it has any semblence of control over your life, it's a sham.

It's a comformity that you adhere to, to make sense of the world but it is nothing more than an idle conversation generator.

And I'll go ahead here for you. My particular belief, is an idle daydream as well. I will never live to see such a thing and at most, I'll live long enough to see the first commercial prosthetics get launched to the public and watch Baltimore Chimp Out 2050 with cyborg people killing each other.

Letting your philosphy run your life, leads to mistakes. Believing you are correct to 100% is a failure and can lead to so many problems.

I'm talking to you, mainly because of my own musings over the past days. I'm aware of the real reality around me. We live only in the present moment. Putting your cards on the future, and all of them, is a surefire thing to backfire.

And while I don't think you're an active perpetrator of your belief, you don't spend your time and efforts on it, I do think you'll spend your life, trying to do whatever it is that you enjoy, just like a normal person, just like every person.

Which regards your philosophy to the couch potato stance again. Just a unique conversation piece. Don't let it call your shots for you verb.

That applies to me because I take my musings on people and apply it to myself as well. But, I figured, I'd share this thought train here with you since this is the place for it, at this point, and this debate was what sparked my thinking.

Do with that whatever you please. Maybe it's presumptious of me or assertive or even not minding my own business in regards to personal affairs.

In that case you can always tell me to fuck off.



Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
why is this thread still alive


aREALgod | Legendary Invincible!
 
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why is this thread still alive

It has quality discussion value and I think the 8 pages of replies is a reflection of that.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
why is this thread still alive

It has quality discussion value and I think the 8 pages of replies is a reflection of that.
If by discussion value you mean 7 pages of Sandtrap ramblings and Verbatimposting then yeah, quality discussion all the way.


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why is this thread still alive

It has quality discussion value and I think the 8 pages of replies is a reflection of that.
If by discussion value you mean 7 pages of Sandtrap ramblings and Verbatimposting then yeah, quality discussion all the way.
Sandtrap's ramblings haven't constituted a majority of the thread, and Verb's debate with Mr. P has been quality. It's invoked discussion


 
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What is, arguably, and without a doubt, the reason you're here?

Why are you still here, what's your goal in life, and why do you keep going? What gives you the motivation to get up and do whatever it is that you choose to do?
Short answer:

I'm here because other people are here.

Longer answer:

As someone who believes the sort of things that I do, wanting the human race to stop reproducing and all, a lot of people ask me why I haven't just killed myself yet, if I'm so unhappy with my life. However, as I've went over countless times, that is not the point of anti-natalism. I'm not unhappy with my life. How could I be? I'm white, male, and I was born in the first world. I have a roof over my head and I eat every single day. I have electricity, heat, and clean water. Not to mention, an Internet connection. I'm attending a four year university, and I am very articulate. I don't think there's much room for me to complain about my own life. There are people I dislike, and not everything goes my way on some days, but my anti-natalism is not based on some personal angst that I might have. It's based on the assumption that life itself is fundamentally broken. I'm taking account for all the people who aren't as fortunate as I am. Suicide? What kind of solution is that? That doesn't prevent the world's suffering. That doesn't end world hunger. That doesn't prevent future generations from being born. The only thing it does is relieve me of my own sensations, and that's not good enough. My personal life doesn't make up a seven billionth of all the life on Earth--it would be solipsistic to be under such an impression that the world's suffering revolves around my own.

What motivates me, then, is my ability to communicate with my fellow human beings, heatedly or otherwise. Communication is the most important tool that humans have been given, and I'm trying to take full advantage of it. The Internet has made it possible to spread ideas all over the world. You could say that my goal is to spread the memes (in the Dawkins sense of the term) that I deem are worth spreading. I think anti-natalism is a fundamentally and logically flawless idea, and I've presented the idea everywhere I go so I can discuss it with my fellow human beings. Some agree with me, some see where I'm coming from, and others respond with hatred and vitriol, or otherwise, sheer stupidity. And it's frustrating, but I believe that I'm right, and I feel like I'd be committing an injustice to humanity if I did not advocate for what's right. That's why I continue.


 
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And second. Let's say the cards land in your favor and you meet somebody who jumps on board with your philosophy. Then what? You two live your lives, then you keel over. Your philosphy lacks something Verb. The ability to create paradigms.

How has any belief grown powerful over the centuries? The bible, for instance. Paradigms, installed into children. The best way to expand any belief into any real sense of power or magnitude, is through kids. Raising them by an example, installing a paradigm into them when they're young makes said belief almost unshakable and unbreakable.

So, as such, your belief, Verb, is what I'll just say is a couch potato philosphy. You can't do anything with it. It can't raise kids with raised values to carry on a silent legacy perpetrated by family lines. It can't convince everybody in the world, unless it turned to brute force, which would render it oppressive. It can't, and will never leave any outstanding mark on the world.
There's always adoption, if I am so inclined one day to raise somebody. There's nothing in anti-natalism that says I can't do that. I don't see the practical difference in teaching a loved one about my philosophy, and teaching a loved one about my philosophy, however. It's these people that will understand me the very most, simply because they're my blood, and if they reject my philosophy on any grounds, it's probably going to be on the grounds that my belief doesn't have any room for God. There's no room for heaven or hell. If my family weren't still duped by the flowers of religion, I'm positive that they'd be closet anti-natalists, at the very least.


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It is absolutely abominable that we practice or condone this type of sickening behavior. There is absolutely NO reason for it to happen. Period.

If the mother or child was going to die, or if the mother was raped, then yeah let it happen.


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Oh, hey.
we shouldn't be swayed by emotional appeals, no

unless appealing to emotions is actually logical
in this case, it is not

it's an easy argument for ME to make, in particular, because i believe bringing life into existence is wrong
so, in my opinion, abortion should be mandatory

Your against creating life?

Jesus Christ this is new levels of edge.


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Your against creating life?

Jesus Christ this is new levels of edge.
*you're


BC | Legendary Inconceivable!
 
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Oh, hey.
Your against creating life?

Jesus Christ this is new levels of edge.
*you're

Well played