What if Christianity hadn't risen to prominence?

eggsalad · October 22, 2015, 12:38:33 PM

Quote from: Mordo on October 22, 2015, 06:17:16 AM

What basis are you guys using that Christianity was a beneficial force throughout history? Just curious, because a lot of this just seems to be conjecture and speculation.

The Church acting as pseudo-government brought order and stability that fostered what grew into what we see now. Also the Church did a lot to preserve knowledge.

DAS B00T x2 · October 22, 2015, 12:45:12 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 22, 2015, 11:40:26 AM

Quote from: Endork on October 22, 2015, 09:13:11 AM
It would also be pretty different because we wouldn't have had the crusades.

Maybe we wouldn't have left the dark ages until a lot later.

Maybe the dark ages never started then.
Dark Ages were because of the fall of Rome, not Christianity (primarily, in any case).

More to do specifically with the literacy rate of ancient Greek completely dying in Europe than just Rome falling, tbh. If the Visgoths new how to read Greek, the dark ages wouldn't have ever been called such.

CIS · October 22, 2015, 04:59:31 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 22, 2015, 10:42:34 AM

Probably we'd be praying to the Roman pantheon. It was Constatine's conversion to Christianity that spread the religion, not anything inherent in Christianity. So, if he hadn't, then the original Roman religion would be the predominant one. The driving factor was Rome.

There were more religions than the Greco-Roman state religion in the Roman Empire. The Mithraic mysteries, the cult of Sol Invictus, etc.

Luciana · October 22, 2015, 05:20:12 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 22, 2015, 08:59:42 AM

Quote from: Luciana on October 22, 2015, 03:03:26 AM
Like everyone said

more barbaric, less advanced, etc etc

People's lives back in the early days were MUCH harder too, so having that greater power/faith and thinking life would be better when you died, probably carried a lot of them forward. Especially during the Dark Ages.
>he thinks the dark ages were dark
Spoiler

The sun was blocked out.

> he

Cindy · October 22, 2015, 05:25:48 PM

Quote from: The Ghost That Never Lies on October 22, 2015, 01:04:03 AM

It would be a lot more barbaric and not nearly as technologically advanced. While I don't need religion to justify acting like a good person or having a reason to live, a lot of people (especially in the early ages of humanity) can't say the same thing. Christianity definitely propelled us forward in a lot of ways.

Well that's just stupid

Super Irish · October 22, 2015, 05:38:23 PM

Well for a start, the Vatican would just be some part of Italy, or it's own sovereign state like the rest of Italy was throughout history.

We wouldn't get posts about "Pope Franky thinks gays are ok" and that sorta thing.

Most European (and by extent Africa and the Americas) would still be following their own native beliefs, or be swallowed and colonised by another religious beliefs (i.e. Native Americans and Incas still taken over, but by Pagans or some development upon that).

That means most Catholic influenced countries (Ireland, Italy, etc) would have a far lower birthrate throughout history, lowering their national populations overall.

...would France still be called Gaul?

Hitler wouldn't have the "neutral opposition" of the Catholic/Christian church, so he could steamroll them like the other parties without fear of reprisals.

Russia wouldn't be Orthodox christian. No St Petersburg (Still Leningrad, or some other name).

We'd still celebrate Halloween, and have the Spring/Summer Equinox, but no national holidays such as Easter or Christmas.

Possible treatment towards Christians as hostile, considering how Jews and Muslims are perceived and treated today in Western countries.

I can't say much more into it technologically or ethically, as that's far too big an assumption to make.

SecondClass · October 22, 2015, 05:38:46 PM

Quote from: Cindo on October 22, 2015, 05:25:48 PM

Quote from: The Ghost That Never Lies on October 22, 2015, 01:04:03 AM
It would be a lot more barbaric and not nearly as technologically advanced. While I don't need religion to justify acting like a good person or having a reason to live, a lot of people (especially in the early ages of humanity) can't say the same thing. Christianity definitely propelled us forward in a lot of ways.
Well that's just stupid

It's actually very accurate. I'm an atheist too, but it's dumb to not recognize the benefits that organized religion has brought to mankind.

Cindy · October 22, 2015, 05:41:55 PM

Quote from: The Ghost That Never Lies on October 22, 2015, 05:38:46 PM

Quote from: Cindo on October 22, 2015, 05:25:48 PM
Quote from: The Ghost That Never Lies on October 22, 2015, 01:04:03 AM
It would be a lot more barbaric and not nearly as technologically advanced. While I don't need religion to justify acting like a good person or having a reason to live, a lot of people (especially in the early ages of humanity) can't say the same thing. Christianity definitely propelled us forward in a lot of ways.
Well that's just stupid
It's actually very accurate. I'm an atheist too, but it's dumb to not recognize the benefits that organized religion has brought to mankind.

Possibly, but saying that it's all due to Christianity is placing an unnecessary amount of importance on that one specific religion. Peasants didn't tend to have an unwavering compulsion to a certain religion, so it generally just tended to be - and still is, to an extend - whatever was "big" at the time and whatever their parents brought them up under.

Like, not to knock Christianity, but it's not like Europe would be some kind of shithole if it had never risen to such prominence.

The larger change would be more cultural than anything. Without Christianity, another religion simply would have taken its place and spread with equal prominence. That, in turn, would effect how the breakdown of the religion (Orthodoxy, Catholocism, all facets of Protestantism) would be (in this case, the lack thereof and the devolution of whatever new religion would have come into place).

And then on that note, there's the whole wonder as to what would've happened in the Middle East. Without Muhammad to unite the Bedouin tribes under Islam, that Abrahamic religion may never have spread. The religions of the Middle East may be closer to Ancient Mesopotamian ones.

Of course that in itself has large effects over what the situation across Africa and the Middle East would be in the modern day and throughout history leading up to that point, way too many to go over in a single post.

Cindy · October 22, 2015, 05:44:46 PM

People in this thread disappoint me.

You're looking at it too much as a "how would things be different if history had played out exactly as it has, but without Christianity"

The problem with that is that a VAST AMOUNT of the large events that have shaped Europe, Africa, the Americas, and the Middle East would not have taken place without Christianity.

It would be a MASSIVE difference in culture and events.

Cindy · October 22, 2015, 05:50:14 PM

The Middle East would've been especially interesting, really

It probably would've either been enveloped by Zoroastrianism with the spread of Persia. Alternatively, Mecca was already a worship place for many tribal religions, so it could've been interesting to see some sort of evolution of a multi-faith holy city shared peacefully between many large tribal religions of the area.

Ushan · October 23, 2015, 02:56:51 AM

I don't see how it would have been much different, really. Things like art and culture might look different, but I don't think we'd be any more or less advanced socially or technologically, at least not by a great deal.

Sandtrap · October 23, 2015, 03:09:07 AM

We wouldn't have to deal with all of these shitty fedora tipping atheists.

Fuck you christianity for creating that plague.

Luciana · October 23, 2015, 08:46:06 AM

Quote from: Finger Face on October 23, 2015, 02:56:51 AM

I don't see how it would have been much different, really. Things like art and culture might look different, but I don't think we'd be any more or less advanced socially or technologically, at least not by a great deal.

You really need to take a huuuuuge look at history, the regions, and everything it has effected. It would be insanely different from a cultural aspect.

Tackel · October 23, 2015, 12:55:59 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on October 22, 2015, 10:42:34 AM

Probably we'd be praying to the Roman pantheon. It was Constatine's conversion to Christianity that spread the religion, not anything inherent in Christianity. So, if he hadn't, then the original Roman religion would be the predominant one. The driving factor was Rome.

Didn't your wife cheat on you or something?

Septy · October 24, 2015, 04:08:43 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 22, 2015, 11:40:26 AM

Quote from: Endork on October 22, 2015, 09:13:11 AM
It would also be pretty different because we wouldn't have had the crusades.

Maybe we wouldn't have left the dark ages until a lot later.

Maybe the dark ages never started then.
Dark Ages were because of the fall of Rome, not Christianity (primarily, in any case).

And because of the fall of Alexandria

The Alexandria library actually had blueprints for steam engines and probably had prototypes.

BlackEye · October 25, 2015, 12:02:02 AM

We would all be towel heads.

Cindy · October 25, 2015, 01:21:42 AM

Quote from: BlackEye on October 25, 2015, 12:02:02 AM

We would all be towel heads.

No we wouldn't because Islam wouldn't exist

jfc

Luciana · October 25, 2015, 03:34:07 AM

Quote from: Cindo on October 25, 2015, 01:21:42 AM

Quote from: BlackEye on October 25, 2015, 12:02:02 AM
We would all be towel heads.
No we wouldn't because Islam wouldn't exist

jfc

Pretty much.

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all go hand in hand. As she has said before, Zoroastrianism would probably still be huge.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · October 25, 2015, 03:57:25 AM

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🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 25, 2015, 10:06:28 AM

Quote from: Septy on October 24, 2015, 04:08:43 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 22, 2015, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Endork on October 22, 2015, 09:13:11 AM
It would also be pretty different because we wouldn't have had the crusades.

Maybe we wouldn't have left the dark ages until a lot later.

Maybe the dark ages never started then.
Dark Ages were because of the fall of Rome, not Christianity (primarily, in any case).
And because of the fall of Alexandria

The Alexandria library actually had blueprints for steam engines and probably had prototypes.

How do we know about that?

Cindy · October 25, 2015, 02:02:01 PM

Quote from: HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX on October 25, 2015, 03:57:25 AM

Quote from: Luciana on October 25, 2015, 03:34:07 AM
Quote from: Cindo on October 25, 2015, 01:21:42 AM
Quote from: BlackEye on October 25, 2015, 12:02:02 AM
We would all be towel heads.
No we wouldn't because Islam wouldn't exist

jfc
Pretty much.

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism all go hand in hand. As she has said before, Zoroastrianism would probably still be huge.
Islam not so much.

Christianity and Judaism did have some influence over Mohammed, yes, but Islam is closer to Zoroastrianism than those religions in that it is a monotheistic religion based on revised polytheistic beliefs.

Pre-Islamic Arabs were largely pagan, but (according to Islamic sources, which are sadly the only sources we really have) had a concept of a "greater god" that ruled distantly over all others, a central supreme being.

Mohammad didn't convert the Arabs to worship a new god so much as he centered focus on the core deity and suppressed worship of peripherals.

This, again, is all from Islamic sources, which may or may not affect its credibility.

Islam could reasonably exist independantly of Christianity and Judaism, but probably in a somewhat different form.

Well then it wouldn't be fuckin' Islam, would it?

The whole "origin" story is that the Archangel Gabriel came down to speak to Mohammad. The Bible is one of the holy books of Islam.