"The British people have risen at last, and we're about to unleash chaos"

 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Peter Hitchens.

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I think we are about to have the most serious constitutional crisis since the Abdication of King Edward VIII. I suppose we had better try to enjoy it.

If – as I think we will – we vote to leave the EU on June 23, a democratically elected Parliament, which wants to stay, will confront a force as great as itself – a national vote, equally democratic, which wants to quit. Are we about to find out what actually happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?

I am genuinely unsure how this will work out. I hope it will only destroy our two dead political parties, stiffened corpses that have long propped each other up with the aid of BBC endorsement and ill-gotten money.

I was wrong to think that the EU referendum would be so hopelessly rigged that the campaign for independence was doomed to lose. I overestimated the Prime Minister – a difficult thing for me to do since my opinion of him was so low. I did not think he could possibly have promised this vote with so little thought, preparation or skill.

I underestimated the BBC, which has, perhaps thanks to years of justified and correct criticism from people such as me, taken its duty of impartiality seriously.

Everything I hear now suggests that the votes for Leave are piling up, while the Remain cause is faltering and floundering. The betrayed supporters of both major parties now feel free to take revenge on their smug and arrogant leaders.

It has been a mystery to me that these voters stayed loyal to organisations that repeatedly spat on them from a great height. Labour doesn’t love the poor. It loves the London elite. The Tories don’t love the country. They love only money. The referendum, in which the parties are split and uncertain, has freed us all from silly tribal loyalties and allowed us to vote instead according to reason. We can all vote against the heedless, arrogant snobs who inflicted mass immigration on the poor (while making sure they lived far from its consequences themselves). And nobody can call us ‘racists’ for doing so. That’s not to say that the voters are ignoring the actual issue of EU membership as a whole. As I have known for decades, this country has gained nothing from belonging to the European Union, and lost a great deal.

If Zambia can be independent, why cannot we? If membership is so good for us, why has it been accompanied by savage industrial and commercial decline? If the Brussels system of sclerotic, centralised bureaucracy is so good, why doesn’t anyone else in the world adopt it?

As for the clueless drivel about independence campaigners being hostile to foreigners or narrow-minded, this is mere ignorant snobbery. I’ll take on any of them in a competition as to who has travelled most widely, in Europe and beyond it. Good heavens, I’ve even read Tolstoy and like listening to Beethoven. And I still want to leave the EU.

Do these people even know what they are saying when they call us ‘Little Englanders’?

England has never been more little than it is now, a subject province of someone else’s empire.

I have to say that this isn’t the way out I would have chosen, and that I hate referendums because I love our ancient Parliament. And, as I loathe anarchy and chaos, I fear the crisis that I think is coming.

I hope we produce people capable of handling it. I wouldn’t have started from here. But despite all this, it is still rather thrilling to see the British people stirring at last after a long, long sleep.





Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
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Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours


 
 
Flee
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More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
On an unrelated note, anyone who wants to see me defend my thesis against the University's cybercrime and data protection panel is more than welcome to come see. It is public, after all.
And travel to the heart of the EU to hear somebody speak frog?

No thank you.

Spoiler
On a serious note, good luck with your defence.


 
 
Flee
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
It's all in English, actually.
Cultural superiority: confirmed.


 
 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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<.<
I'm fairly resigned to it at this point.

The polls are useless and each side is crowing dominance but going by the people I know and see in the shop (the regular customers who stop to chat) I won't be surprised at all when the results say 'Out'.

The remain campaign has been the most half-arsed limp-dick scaremongering train that I can remember and the out campaign has no grasp of statistics or the finances of the country (muh 350 gorillion for the nhs).



 
 
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More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I'm fairly resigned to it at this point.
Likewise. I more or less assumed that the righteous and godly side of Remain would just win, but the sheer amount of populism on both sides of the debate has really disappointed me. Even parts of what Meta just quoted make me facepalm at the populist discourse in it.
I should point out that, as a rule, I don't like Peter Hitchens. (As an aside, I wouldn't generally think of him as populist either).

That said, would you mind pointing out the specific passages of populism in the article?


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
The polls are useless
I wouldn't go that far. Polls across the board are showing increasing momentum for the Leave campaign--both phone and online--and if anything could be underestimating the Leave vote due to flaws in the way the data is collected.


 
 
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<.<
The polls are useless
I wouldn't go that far. Polls across the board are showing increasing momentum for the Leave campaign--both phone and online--and if anything could be underestimating the Leave vote due to flaws in the way the data is collected.
I'm still not inclined to believe their results after the last general though, but I mean they are probably right about this given how outspoken a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot of people are regarding the EU (i.e no 'shy tories').


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Well, Brits saved Europe from Napoleon, the Nazis, I'm sure they can save it from EU dictatorship.


 
 
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Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 07:03:37 PM by Flee


 
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
The suggestion that the EU forced mass immigration on the UK which ruined "the poor" without recognizing that (as far as I'm aware) just about all economic research has established that EU immigration has been very beneficial for the UK's economy, is negligible for the British "poor" in the sense of not raising wages or stealing jobs, and that EU immigrants contribute, on average, more to the UK's funds while relying less on British welfare than actual Britons.
Not to cherry pick or anything but this is a pretty patent conflation of mass immigration and immigration in general. Nobody apart from the hard right thinks that immigration alone is a net negative. What most eurosceptics and critics posit that, on the whole, mass immigration on the level we have seen since the early 90s has been ridiculously difficult to manage, to the point where first and second generation immigrants are no longer assimilating. I'm not an economist, so I'm not going to present myself as an expert on that particular field, but there clearly needs to be discussions had about the cultural and social aspects of immigration the UK has been experiencing for the past 20 years or so, not just economically.


 
 
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Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 03:44:00 AM by Flee


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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
And then there's the comments about how the EU is sclerotic and unable to change, which conveniently ignore that the Union is working on improving its institutions and changing the way they work pretty much constantly, as illustrated by many gradual changes to several of its organs and arguably one of the biggest changes in the EU's history being introduced just a few years ago to give significantly more power to the directly elected Parliament.
I would mention, however, that--AFAIK--the Parliament still does not have legislative initiative. The representatives sit in the Parliament not by country but by ideological blocs. The ratio of MEPs to Britons is something like one-to-one million. And, at least according to Daniel Hannan, neither the Parliament nor the Council is permitted to discuss something unless the Commission has expressly called for it to be discussed.

Correct me if any of these are wrong, but they are all (at least for me) fundamental problems with the Union. And it doesn't look like the third one can be fixed in any significant way.

And, of course, there are rumblings about the EU keeping plans on hold until after the referendum, lest they swing the decision towards Leave. Most notably, the plans for a European Army, among some other things. I don't know whether this is true, but it nicely highlights the fact that the only way forward is either the dissolution of the monetary union or greater fiscal integration. And, let's be honest, the latter is most likely; I don't want to see the UK on the periphery of a two-speed Europe, dominated by the Germans and the French.

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I have seen 3 people who legitimately seem to think that the President of the Commission is some sort of illegitimate dictator who rules the EU with an iron fist forcing refugees into the UK and singlehandedly imposes arbitrary laws on Britain to fuck people over.
This is not a widespread opinion; the most widespread negative opinion of Juncker is as him being an ineffectual drunkard.


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 08:39:50 AM by Flee


 
 
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