"You should absolutely be forced to be vegan."

Sandtrap · May 11, 2015, 10:33:24 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 09:55:50 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on May 11, 2015, 09:51:41 PM
Plants have nervous systems, plants feel pain, plants, even have short term memory.
No, no, no no no. No. No. Nope. No. No.

Sorry, but no. They do not.
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I'm not one for killing or damaging anything as much as I can. But sometimes you can't not do it. The best you can do is be respectful and appreciative that something died to extend your life. Appreciate that loss, but do it not out of joy or for sport. Just be respectful and mindful is all.
I can respect this mentality, but yeah.

Plants... do not have nervous systems, and they do not feel pain. I have no idea where you got that information. They don't even have a brain to process such a sensation, so like... that's a whole lot of "no".

Really wish I had the memory to cite the sources. They've done research on this and it's an expanding field. You're rusty on this Verb. I was wrong. Feeling pain? Nervous system? No. Memory? Yes.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-09/new-research-plant-intelligence-may-forever-change-how-you-think-about-plants

Plants don't have brains but they are very reactive to a fuck ton of stimuli.

An incident I can recite from memory. Look it up. Plants in africa. They're like bushes. They were being eaten by a deer/gazelle like critter, and one year, there was an overpopulation and so they ate too much, putting a dent in the plant population.

Then the critters started dropping dead. They couldn't figure it out for the longest time but eventually they found out. The plants were reacting to being overeaten and losing their leaves. They secreted higher amounts of toxins into their leaves, and actually ejected chemicals into the wind that informed the same variety of those plants to react in the same manner.

Another article on plant communication and the fact that they register sound and vibration.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/scientists-confirm-plants-talk-and-listen-each-other-communication-crucial-survival-240775

Here's an article on molecular communication with plants.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140814191939.htm

So, actually, you're potentially wrong. Plants don't have nervous systems but they have functions and chemicals that are akin to them. And so far, we don't know if they feel pain. But they respond to many, many different forms of stimuli.

So, actually, that's a whole lot of yes. Plant neurobiology. An interesting field.

Verbatim · May 11, 2015, 10:38:02 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on May 11, 2015, 10:33:24 PM

So, actually, you're potentially wrong. Plants don't have nervous systems but they have functions and chemicals that are akin to them. And so far, we don't know if they feel pain. But they respond to many, many different forms of stimuli.

So, actually, that's a whole lot of yes. Plant neurobiology. An interesting field.

Really, all you had to cite was something simple like a Venus flytrap. We've all seen those, and one of the most prominent things about them is the fact that they respond to stimuli. But that's all they do, is respond to stimuli. It doesn't mean they're sentient, it doesn't mean they can feel. They were naturally selected to undergo a specific and niched process. That's all it is.

I concede that we don't know if plants feel pain, and we'll likely never learn, but until there is significant evidence to suggest that they do, I'm not going to start saying, "Well, it's okay to eat meat now, because plants feel, too".

🍁 Aria 🔮 · May 11, 2015, 10:38:35 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 10:29:58 PM

Quote from: eggsalad on May 11, 2015, 10:25:46 PM
You compare murder to killing animals, which I understand to you is synonymous, but you fail to demonstrate that humans have a natural aversion to killing animals like they do other humans. Making it a poor comparison.
I don't think that makes it a poor comparison at all, especially considering that there are some people who don't have any aversion to killing animals. Have you heard of hunting?

Or am I misunderstanding you? That was a rather poorly-constructed sentence, and I'm not even sure if that's what you meant.

A natural aversion to killing animals, not tendency.

Deleted · May 11, 2015, 10:40:16 PM

Thanks for posting this.
It has changed my life, I am going to schedule an appointment to have my ears sugicaly removed.
This idiocy in this video has finally convinced my that the ability to hear is nothing but a burden and I would be better off without being able to listen to such nonsense ever again.

I will surely credit you when I win my Nobel Prize

But seriously I have nothing against vegans but that was just retarded.

Sandtrap · May 11, 2015, 10:40:23 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 10:38:02 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on May 11, 2015, 10:33:24 PM
So, actually, you're potentially wrong. Plants don't have nervous systems but they have functions and chemicals that are akin to them. And so far, we don't know if they feel pain. But they respond to many, many different forms of stimuli.

So, actually, that's a whole lot of yes. Plant neurobiology. An interesting field.
Really, all you had to cite was something simple like a Venus flytrap. We've all seen those, and one of the most prominent things about them is the fact that they respond to stimuli. But that's all they do, is respond to stimuli. It doesn't mean they're sentient, it doesn't mean they can feel. They were naturally selected to undergo a specific and niched process. That's all it is.

I concede that we don't know if plants feel pain, and we'll likely never learn, but until there is significant evidence to suggest that they do, I'm not going to start saying, well, it's okay to eat meat now.

You read the article on the ferns learning not to be tricked into closing their leaves? I can quote the section for you if you want. Dunno if we can directly call it learning. But it is rather clever and very, very quick adaptation.

Batch · May 11, 2015, 10:41:52 PM

Just my 2 cents. if anyone with this mentality came to power it would never work simple as that, you know you are a very very small minority Verb, that aint a bad thing. But human history, instinct hell even science says meat is necessary for a healthy diet. Just my opinion.

But it could never work, making cigarettes illigal would already be too far, but meat....total chaos. It would fractor societies if it was ever enforced.

Just plainly put its a bad idea and would never work in this current time we live in.

*sips tea*

Verbatim · May 11, 2015, 10:49:29 PM

Quote from: Prime Servitor on May 11, 2015, 10:38:35 PM

A natural aversion to killing animals, not tendency.

I mean, if that's what he's saying, then he's just demonstrably incorrect...

Quote from: Sandtrap on May 11, 2015, 10:40:23 PM

You read the article on the ferns learning not to be tricked into closing their leaves? I can quote the section for you if you want. Dunno if we can directly call it learning. But it is rather clever and very, very quick adaptation.

I mean, it's interesting as a biological process, but again, all I really care to see is an article that says "plants feel". We can build AI that "learn", but there's no way we could ever make a sentient AI. No way.

Quote from: Batch on May 11, 2015, 10:41:52 PM

But human history, instinct hell even science says meat is necessary for a healthy diet. Just my opinion.

No, I don't think science says that at all. Meat contains NO nutrients that cannot be found just as easily in vegan foods. Some of the most healthy people I've ever met have been vegan.

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Just plainly put its a bad idea and would never work in this current time we live in.

Obviously. It's obviously going to be a slow, incremental process. No one's saying we should ban meat-eating tomorrow.

Batch · May 11, 2015, 10:55:24 PM

In what state do you think the world needs to be in to bin meat.

Also what are we gunna do with all those cows? Theyll probably grow so high in numbers if you put them all together that it'll create more CO2 pollution then what we currently have.

Verbatim · May 11, 2015, 11:00:28 PM

Quote from: Batch on May 11, 2015, 10:55:24 PM

In what state do you think the world needs to be in to bin meat.

I don't really care. I'm not out to ban meat, I'm out to spread the message that eating meat is wrong. You can do with that information as you will, but hopefully, you'll realize that I'm right, and that we should probably do something about it.

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Also what are we gunna do with all those cows? Theyll probably grow so high in numbers if you put them all together that it'll create more CO2 pollution then what we currently have.

...No they won't? There are about 1.5 billion cows. The only reason we have so many is because we eat them. If we stopped fucking eating them, there would be a drastic decline in cow numbers. Same for chickens and pigs and whatever the fuck else you eat.

Dan · May 11, 2015, 11:03:19 PM

I can sort of see the logic behind the argument that killing animals is wrong. But how is eating an already dead animal wrong? Choosing to either eat or not eat an already dead animal isn't going to make a difference.

Yu · May 11, 2015, 11:06:38 PM

Because prohibition worked well, lets try it with food options.

Verbatim · May 11, 2015, 11:10:51 PM

Quote from: Daniel on May 11, 2015, 11:03:19 PM

I can sort of see the logic behind the argument that killing animals is wrong. But how is eating an already dead animal wrong? Choosing to either eat or not eat an already dead animal isn't going to make a difference.

Eating an animal that is already dead isn't wrong. Obviously. In fact, assuming the meat industry was destroyed and everyone became a vegan tomorrow, the most veganistic thing to do in that moment would actually be to consume all of the meat & dairy products that remain on the market. So as to not let the animals' suffering go to waste.

No, the problem lies with the fact that we are indeed killing them. No one just... finds cadavers of animals and eats them. No one sits around and waits for their livestock to die just so that they can eat them. No, we torture them brutally, and then we kill them. That's the problem.

Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:06:38 PM

Because prohibition worked well, lets try it with food options.

Irrelevant. Otherwise, I guess we should legalize murder, because people still murder people every single day regardless.

Bad straw man.

Yu · May 11, 2015, 11:14:09 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 11:10:51 PM

Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:06:38 PM
Because prohibition worked well, lets try it with food options.
Irrelevant. Otherwise, I guess we should legalize murder, because people still murder people every single day regardless.

Bad straw man.

I'm only pointing out that it wouldn't work, whatever her intentions are, no one would follow it, and like hell would anyone enforce it. The amount of backlash it would get would ensure it would never happen.

Forgewolf · May 12, 2015, 12:22:29 AM

Wanting to eat a more Fruit and Vegetable diet, while living in the desert is a bitch.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 12:30:45 AM

Freelee is a terrible advocate for veganism, as is her boyfriend Harley (durianrider) and many other popular vegan channels on Youtube -- Vegan Gains, Gary Yourofsky (yes he has a channel now), bananiac, etc.

I'm not attacking them personally; they're just preaching to the choir. None of their videos present rational, reasonable arguments for adopting veganism and instead spout pseudoscience and pillory other prominent youtubers for eating meat. Freelee and Harley are particularly insistent on making videos to peddle their spurious fruit-based diet and e-books, with the occasional video addressing some far-wing study suggesting that meat causes cancer or something. I'd say the ratio for these videos is about 30:1.

Edit: just watched her video. I want to commend her, but I can't. Her passionate rant has, evidently, done nothing but reinforce the popular belief that vegans are radical extremists immune to logic and reason, which is a smear on the logic and reason veganism has going for it.

She's the most popular vegan-oriented youtuber by far, and she needs to take a step back and think about how to proceed. Videos like this may elicit sympathy from those who are already vegan, but are easy ammunition for those already hostile to the idea. There may very well be a time to set aside the civilised semi-complicit attitiude and bring out the big guns, but a Youtube video that will soon be yesterday's news is hardly the way to do it.

The best vegan channels I've found are the VeganAtheist and Unnatural Vegan. There are some excellent blogs I read too. Sadly veganism has become a gated community where its residents aren't willing to criticize each other (and there is plenty of criticism to go around) because they are blinded by an "us vs them" mentality. It's ridiculous. We're doing this for animals, not each other.

Now I will try to engage other users ITT in a respectful dialogue. Wish me luck.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 01:03:27 AM

Quote from: Sandtrap on May 11, 2015, 09:51:41 PM

You can't win no matter what you do either way anyway, in regards to being vegan or meat eater. Plants have nervous systems, plants feel pain, plants, even have short term memory. You're still killing something to survive either way.

Verb probably already addressed most of this but I'm gonna chime in anyway.

Plants do not have nervous systems; this is a fact. They may feel pain, but we have no evidence that they do, and since we know that pain is realized in a nervous system -- which plants lack -- there is no rational reason to believe it.

Plants do not have "short term memory" in any way comparable to the kind of memory that is produced by a mammalian brain and consciously recognized. This is where people are often bamboozled by terms that are used by scientists in a much stricter sense than in everyday language. When terms such as "short term memory", "behaviour" and "response" are used they are not inferring any of the properties that we normally associate with them -- namely, conscious awareness. I should say at this point that I'm currently pursuing degrees in agrochemistry and plant biology. I'm in the infant stages, mind you, but I am not a dunce when it comes to plant behavior and I'm certainly not clouded by bias (or I am very wary of it, at least). As it stands, there is no scientific consensus that plants are conscious in any way comparable to humans and animals. There is (keyword) inconclusive evidence that some plants have basic sensory perception, but this is radically different from the consciousness that we know and toward which we have moral obligations.

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If veganism became a big deal, some other asshole company out there would abuse it. They already do. GMO crops, altered plants, chemical sprays on farms, desicating crops ect ect.

GM tech is not inherently harmful and is actually incredibly promising for vegans and civilisation in general. Crops can be bioengineered to contain nutrients they do not naturally contain (the benefits this can have for developing countries are enormous); produce narrow-spectrum pesticides that target only threatening species of insect, or require less to no pesticides in general; to become more resistant to saline levels in soil, meaning they can be planted on less fertile land; to produce greater yields; and to create in-vitro animal products removing the need (or, to better put it, want) for animal farming. On purely ethical grounds, biotechnology is one of the most promising fields of research we currently have.

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I'm not one for killing or damaging anything as much as I can. But sometimes you can't not do it. The best you can do is be respectful and appreciative that something died to extend your life. Appreciate that loss, but do it not out of joy or for sport. Just be respectful and mindful is all.

Going to a different area of the supermarket is probably the easiest thing you can do, so I don't think this is a valid argument.

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Either way you can't win these days. Everything's already modified and altered to shit anyway.

This isn't relevant to the ethics of eating animals, though. Do you, personally, think it is ethical to eat animals? Why/why not?

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 01:55:03 AM

Quote from: Batch on May 11, 2015, 10:41:52 PM

even science says meat is necessary for a healthy diet.

Could you please expand on this? What about meat makes it necessary for health (as in, health benefits that are exclusive to meat)?

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 01:59:12 AM

Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:14:09 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 11:10:51 PM
Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:06:38 PM
Because prohibition worked well, lets try it with food options.
Irrelevant. Otherwise, I guess we should legalize murder, because people still murder people every single day regardless.

Bad straw man.
I'm only pointing out that it wouldn't work, whatever her intentions are, no one would follow it, and like hell would anyone enforce it. The amount of backlash it would get would ensure it would never happen.

I think this is rather short-sighted. Nobody expects the world to turn vegan overnight; it would be a gradual shift, like every great feat of moral progress has been a gradual shift (or is currently in the process of shifting).

And hey, animal farming may never stop completely. That doesn't mean we should rest on our laurels and not even try.

Yu · May 12, 2015, 02:14:25 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 01:59:12 AM

Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:14:09 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 11:10:51 PM
Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:06:38 PM
Because prohibition worked well, lets try it with food options.
Irrelevant. Otherwise, I guess we should legalize murder, because people still murder people every single day regardless.

Bad straw man.
I'm only pointing out that it wouldn't work, whatever her intentions are, no one would follow it, and like hell would anyone enforce it. The amount of backlash it would get would ensure it would never happen.
I think this is rather short-sighted. Nobody expects the world to turn vegan overnight; it would be a gradual shift, like every great feat of moral progress has been a gradual shift (or is currently in the process of shifting).

And hey, animal farming may never stop completely. That doesn't mean we should rest on our laurels and not even try.

Thats assuming people actually accept that being forced onto them.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 02:26:15 AM

and as i explained, you can't force anyone anyway

i deconstructed the use of the word "force" rather thoroughly in the OP

i wonder if anyone actually read it

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM

Vegans make me laugh

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 03:14:17 AM

Quote from: Yu on May 12, 2015, 02:14:25 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 01:59:12 AM
Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:14:09 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 11:10:51 PM
Quote from: Yu on May 11, 2015, 11:06:38 PM
Because prohibition worked well, lets try it with food options.
Irrelevant. Otherwise, I guess we should legalize murder, because people still murder people every single day regardless.

Bad straw man.
I'm only pointing out that it wouldn't work, whatever her intentions are, no one would follow it, and like hell would anyone enforce it. The amount of backlash it would get would ensure it would never happen.
I think this is rather short-sighted. Nobody expects the world to turn vegan overnight; it would be a gradual shift, like every great feat of moral progress has been a gradual shift (or is currently in the process of shifting).

And hey, animal farming may never stop completely. That doesn't mean we should rest on our laurels and not even try.
Thats assuming people actually accept that being forced onto them.

That would depend on how gradual the shift was. Undoubtedly some (many) of the people currently alive are beyond help, and no amount of reason will sway them. However, we can still raise awareness with the goals of a) reducing animal exploitation today by getting through to those who are more open-minded, and b) creating a different social climate for tomorrow. This is not rhetoric; it is already happening, and will continue as long as logic and reason continue to supersede irrationality.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM

Vegans make me laugh

Vegans, or veganism?

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?

Both

Batch · May 12, 2015, 03:21:44 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 11:00:28 PM

Quote from: Batch on May 11, 2015, 10:55:24 PM
In what state do you think the world needs to be in to bin meat.
I don't really care. I'm not out to ban meat, I'm out to spread the message that eating meat is wrong. You can do with that information as you will, but hopefully, you'll realize that I'm right, and that we should probably do something about it.
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Also what are we gunna do with all those cows? Theyll probably grow so high in numbers if you put them all together that it'll create more CO2 pollution then what we currently have.
...No they won't? There are about 1.5 billion cows. The only reason we have so many is because we eat them. If we stopped fucking eating them, there would be a drastic decline in cow numbers. Same for chickens and pigs and whatever the fuck else you eat.

Uhhh, I was simply asking for your opinion, that wasnt hostility directed toward you.

Second, how will the act of not culling animals for consumption decrease the population......then to culling them...I uhh...ok.

*sips tea*

Batch · May 12, 2015, 03:25:19 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 01:55:03 AM

Quote from: Batch on May 11, 2015, 10:41:52 PM
even science says meat is necessary for a healthy diet.
Could you please expand on this? What about meat makes it necessary for health (as in, health benefits that are exclusive to meat)?

I've just been told that at most a few servings of red meat per week is good for a balanced diet...can't really link it because it's just things I've heard and read about long back, kinda stuck to that. And by science I mean food experts, class it science or whatever.

*sips tea*

Batch · May 12, 2015, 03:26:01 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM

Vegans make me laugh

You make be having a good time then

*sips tea*

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both

What about veganism makes you laugh?

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 03:56:29 AM

Quote from: Batch on May 12, 2015, 03:26:01 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
You make be having a good time then

*sips tea*

In English please

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 03:57:45 AM

Quote from: Batch on May 12, 2015, 03:25:19 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 01:55:03 AM
Quote from: Batch on May 11, 2015, 10:41:52 PM
even science says meat is necessary for a healthy diet.
Could you please expand on this? What about meat makes it necessary for health (as in, health benefits that are exclusive to meat)?
I've just been told that at most a few servings of red meat per week is good for a balanced diet...can't really link it because it's just things I've heard and read about long back, kinda stuck to that. And by science I mean food experts, class it science or whatever.

*sips tea*

That's quite different from your claim that meat is necessary for a healthy diet, though. Meat is generally recommended in small quantities for convenience, not because there are benefits to meat consumption that can't be obtained from other foods.