So there's a YouTuber by the name of Freelee the Banana Girl. Though she has over 350K subscribers, I've never actually seen any of her videos until today, but after taking a cursory perusal of her channel, it looks as though she just makes vlogs about dieting, nutrition, and suchlike.

A few days ago, she uploaded this rant video, entitled "What do YOU think? ...", wherein she expresses, quite militantly, her philosophy of veganism, and how "you should be forced to be vegan."

---

Now, I'm a vegan, so for me, this video was great propaganda. I do, on occasion, like to hear my own opinions echoed back at me, and I do happen to agree with the majority of the points she made in her video. Naturally, however, this video is blowing up—I discovered it after having seen three video responses on my YouTube feed, all of a bunch of indignant meat-eaters defending their ethically-questionable dietary choice. Currently, the video has a 2:3 like-to-dislike ratio, which is a pretty bad sign if you're a YouTuber with a six-digit subscriber count. Though, it seems like she's taking it rather well.

The point I wanted to focus on, however, was the point that I personally found the most interesting (or the point everyone else is up-in-arms over), and that's her argument that everyone should be forced to become a vegan.

It's an interesting point, because when I was first watching the video, I was thinking to myself, "Yeah, totally. Of course," but then soon after, I was like, "Eh, nah, that wouldn't be right. She's just being too extreme."

But then I thought about it even more.

Coercion, of any sort, is something that, as most of you should know by now, I'm wholly against. Though, as a vegan, I believe killing a sentient animal is essentially the same thing as murder—the same thing as killing a human being. They are both just as bad as one another. The difference, of course, is that murder is illegal. As a result of our speciesist value system, we have sanctioned that slaughtering animals is okay, because that's the dictum of nature—"survival of of the fittest", and other speciesist platitudes.

But how do you force someone into something, anyway? Are we forced not to murder people, because murder is illegal? I would argue that, if murder was decriminalized (or, hell, straight-up legalized), most of the human race would still refrain from killing anybody. Sure, there would be a lot of crazy fucks who might go on a killing spree shortly thereafter, but generally speaking, I think it's a safe argument to make that people don't need the law to tell them what not to do. Just like you don't need God to tell you what not to do.

As a result, I don't think anyone here on this forum would make a bold statement like, "I want to be a murderer, but I'm being forced not to by the state!" That would be a little bit silly. "Force" implies direct action, and you really can't actually force anyone not to kill—you can only convince them, logically, that killing is wrong, and if they don't agree, then you can incarcerate them if they fail to abide by that basic law.

How could anyone, then, be forced to become a vegan? If vegans had it their way, and the meat & dairy industry was not only destroyed once and for all, but the slaughtering of animals was also criminalized, does that necessarily entail any coercive measure to turn everyone into a vegan? No, I don't think so. If you like to eat meat, and there's no industry to provide you with meat, you have two options at that point:
1. Suck it up.
2. Break the law.

I'm not condoning that you break the law, here, either. Just the opposite. All I'm saying is, this idea you should be "forced" into veganism is nonsensical, because you cannot feasibly do it. There are laws already in place that fail to "force" anyone into doing anything. All Freelee is saying, essentially, is that everyone should be a vegan—using words like "force", as I interpreted it, was merely a hyperbolic gushing of passion. It irritates me that everyone is scrutinizing this particular bit, because the idea behind what she's saying is rather clear, but because she had to use the word, now she's being labeled an extremist, and a Nazi, and all these other ridiculous names.

The other thing that people hate, of course, is just her tone, as if that has anything to do with her arguments. Not only does she seem angry—she seems to really want to get under meat-eaters' skin. She really wants to get a rise out of them. So she's a bit of a rabble-rouser. She uses words like "ignorant", "we cannot wait," and "get your shit together". And a lot of people in the comments section don't like that. I'll be responding to a couple here.



Except at no point in her three-minute video did she ever make any remark that resembled "humans aren't as important as animals." Personally, I don't think of humans as less important than animals—they represent the same level of value. Animals are worth no more or less than humans. Humans are worth no more or less than animals. Humans are animals. We don't kill humans for food. We shouldn't kill animals for food, either. It's really not that complicated.



I'm not sure what her "unspoken failings" have to do with the fucking video, actually. Ad hominem attacks are a classic for indignant meat-eaters. If someone dares to exert any level of ethical superiority to another, don't expect any rational discussion from the meat-eaters. Responses like this are truly indicative that most meat-eaters have about as many legs to stand on as their chopped livestock.



Yes, anyone who's not a good, rational person who understands basic, fundamental ethical standards of value should probably die. Yes. I know, I'm just horrible. But once again, we just have another literal-minded, easily-offended, weakly-constituted individual who's going to take passionate, hyperbolic statements out of context, inflate them, and conflate them with decidedly evil, unscrupulous individuals.



You're a spineless, petty cunt.

And you obviously never wanted to become a vegan anyway. So that makes you a duplicitous cunt, too.

---

As an addendum, I think this Freelee chick is very aware that she's not going to make any friends with this video, let alone convert anyone into veganism. She woke up and decided to spit some fire at the people she so despises, which... I can relate to. You can argue that she's only making it harder on herself, and for all vegans, to spread her message, because people don't respond well to vitriol. Not to mention being told what to do. But the thing is, she's absolutely right. We live in a very dark, serious world, and sometimes, if there's something colossally fucked up in society, it takes a lot more than a cordial, meek, capitulating tone to get one's message across. Some of us have been vegans for a very long time, and as a result, we are confronted with the same stupid arguments time and time again. It's very trying, and some of us simply lack the patience to hold your hand through the simple choice that is veganism. And it is a simple choice.

Do I harbor any animosity towards meat-eaters? Maybe a little bit. If you were running short on time, and you simply ran to McDonald's to pick yourself up a chicken sandwich, will I hold that against you? No, I won't. No more than I'd hold it against you if you killed a spider in your house, instead of releasing it outside. But what irritates me the most is when meat-eaters try to justify themselves. A lot of my friends do that. They'll say stuff to me, like, "Uhhh, I had a hamburger for lunch," and then they'll add, "...but that was it," nervously, as though I'm going to lash out at them for doing what 99.99% of the human race does on a daily basis. Or they'll say, "You know, I only eat meat when I have to, you know what I mean? Like, I had nothing else to eat."

The truth is, you never have to, and you most certainly have other alternatives. But it really weirds me out when I have my friends try to walk on eggshells around me whenever they bring up the fact that they've been eating animal products. The truth is, I'm not that anal about it. I'll only ever get annoyed when people start trying to placate me. I'd much rather people look at themselves and say, "I eat meat. I know it's wrong, but I can't help it, because I am too x." And that x isn't going to be a flattering term. But my point is, if you eat meat, own it. Don't try to defend yourself. You're just making yourself look bad. Worse.

Quote

forced

Here's the problem.

I mean, I already basically pointed that in the OP, but... Thanks for the tl;dr, I guess? It's not so much a problem as it is a logistical impossibility.

However, I don't believe that it represents an ethical transgression. I think an ethical statement could be made to argue that people should be "forced", because it really is for the greater good, but whether or not that's possible is another matter. And it isn't possible.

Yeah no thanks.

Yeah no thanks.

Nuanced.

Quote from: DAS B(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ on May 11, 2015, 09:10:40 PM

Shall not be infringed and free country antics aside, I just don't think you should be able to ever legislate this kind of thinking.

We already do, though. I mentioned the murder thing. I'm sure you don't think killing animals is analogous to murder, though.

Correct, I don't.
Lesser beings and what-not, quick deaths and all that jazz. Efficient killing factories and shit...

There is no such thing as a "greater good".

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather eat a cupcake than have my limbs cut off. That seems like a pretty substantially obvious "greater good".

Quote from: DAS B(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ on May 11, 2015, 09:15:14 PM

Correct, I don't.
Lesser beings and what-not, quick deaths and all that jazz. Efficient killing factories and shit...

Lesser beings based on what? We have a vocabulary and they don't? Would you condone killing and eating retards? I mean, not all of us are capable of thinking, let alone thinking logically. Where do you draw the line?

Well, I actually am kind of for the uh... culling of the mentally retarded as they are nothing but a drain on resources.

You can't win no matter what you do either way anyway, in regards to being vegan or meat eater. Plants have nervous systems, plants feel pain, plants, even have short term memory. You're still killing something to survive either way.

Second, you remove the meat industry. Now let's look at the meat industry. Cooped up critters. Altering breeds to yield more meat or have more weight and grinding the dead ones up and putting them into feed for the others. Not pleasant. Also, extremely unhealthy for us because of the tampering done to what was originally just meat.

If veganism became a big deal, some other asshole company out there would abuse it. They already do. GMO crops, altered plants, chemical sprays on farms, desicating crops ect ect.

I'm not one for killing or damaging anything as much as I can. But sometimes you can't not do it. The best you can do is be respectful and appreciative that something died to extend your life. Appreciate that loss, but do it not out of joy or for sport. Just be respectful and mindful is all.

Either way you can't win these days. Everything's already modified and altered to shit anyway.

Quote from: DAS B(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ on May 11, 2015, 09:28:24 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 11, 2015, 09:20:53 PM

Quote from: DAS B(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ on May 11, 2015, 09:15:14 PM

Correct, I don't.
Lesser beings and what-not, quick deaths and all that jazz. Efficient killing factories and shit...

Lesser beings based on what? We have a vocabulary and they don't? Would you condone killing and eating retards? I mean, not all of us are capable of thinking, let alone thinking logically. Where do you draw the line?

Well, I actually am kind of for the uh... culling of the mentally retarded as they are nothing but a drain on resources.

otthild pls go

Fuck that. She had a kid and robbed anothr child his chance of adoption. I would never support that.

This thread is 2smart4me.

People shouldn't be forced to change their eating habits. We are omnivores, it's something we have done for ages.

You compare murder to killing animals, which I understand to you is synonymous, but you fail to demonstrate that humans have a natural aversion to killing animals like they do other humans. Making it a poor comparison.

I don't think that makes it a poor comparison at all, especially considering that there are some people who don't have any aversion to killing animals. Have you heard of hunting?

Or am I misunderstanding you? That was a rather poorly-constructed sentence, and I'm not even sure if that's what you meant.