"You should absolutely be forced to be vegan."

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 11:59:53 AM

Quote from: Incan on May 12, 2015, 11:57:53 AM

So you don't care you might be supporting a company who uses cheap labour? A company that abuses human rights and children to make your clothes?

The subject is veganism.

Turkey · May 12, 2015, 11:59:56 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 11:53:40 AM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on May 12, 2015, 11:49:22 AM
National parks would completely fail to succeed in this aspect if hunting were outlawed. Trophic cascades caused by unchecked prey-animal populations is devastating to the environment on a long-term timeline. Hunting is absolutely integral to environmentalism and preservation.
I'd probably argue that the only reason the deer population, for example, is so high, is because we hunt them. So they breed faster as an evolutionary response. If we stopped hunting them, they wouldn't have any need to breed as fast as they do, would they?

No, it's not a result of evolution or even short-term adaptation. It's largely a result of urbanization and taking territory away from predators, allowing a huge rise in prey-animal population.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 12:00:29 PM

Quote from: oss on May 12, 2015, 11:59:03 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: oss on May 12, 2015, 11:56:54 AM
Death's natural, they just speed it up. Besides the industry here is a lot less abusive.
So let's all just kill each other, then, because death is natural.
Youre good at twisting things arent you

I didn't twist anything--that was your ONE JUSTIFICATION for supporting the industry. "Death is natural." That's EXACTLY what you said.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on May 12, 2015, 11:59:56 AM

No, it's not a result of evolution or even short-term adaptation. It's largely a result of urbanization and taking territory away from predators, allowing a huge rise in prey-animal population.

Source?

Ásgeirr · May 12, 2015, 12:05:41 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 12:00:29 PM

Quote from: oss on May 12, 2015, 11:59:03 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: oss on May 12, 2015, 11:56:54 AM
Death's natural, they just speed it up. Besides the industry here is a lot less abusive.
So let's all just kill each other, then, because death is natural.
Youre good at twisting things arent you
I didn't twist anything--that was your ONE JUSTIFICATION for supporting the industry. "Death is natural." That's EXACTLY what you said.

So then why'd you bring up humans, this isnt about eating us.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 12:07:30 PM

Quote from: oss on May 12, 2015, 12:05:41 PM

So then why'd you bring up humans, this isnt about us.

Yes it is. Veganism is about saving sentient life. Humans are worth no more than an animal. Humans are animals, too.

I'm merely pointing out the double standard that you're setting up. If you're okay with killing animals because death is natural, the same logic should apply to humans. Humans are not special.

Turkey · May 12, 2015, 12:08:20 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 12:01:22 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on May 12, 2015, 11:59:56 AM
No, it's not a result of evolution or even short-term adaptation. It's largely a result of urbanization and taking territory away from predators, allowing a huge rise in prey-animal population.
Source?

I don't have any handy. It's information I learned in various biology courses in school. I had an entire semester dedicated to riparian habitats and studying trophic cascades.

Here's a source that discusses the impact that artificial and natural population control has on the environment.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/trophic-cascades-across-diverse-plant-ecosystems-80060347

Ásgeirr · May 12, 2015, 12:08:32 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 12:07:30 PM

Quote from: oss on May 12, 2015, 12:05:41 PM
So then why'd you bring up humans, this isnt about us.
Yes it is. Veganism is about saving sentient life. Humans are worth no more than an animal. Humans are animals, too.

We're higher up in the food chain, thats just how it is

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 12:12:15 PM

Quote from: oss on May 12, 2015, 12:08:32 PM

We're higher up in the food chain, thats just how it is

That's meaningless. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a bigger fist than you, most likely. Does that give him the right to beat the fuck out of you? Might makes right? Does it really?

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 12:16:02 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 11:59:53 AM

Quote from: Incan on May 12, 2015, 11:57:53 AM
So you don't care you might be supporting a company who uses cheap labour? A company that abuses human rights and children to make your clothes?
The subject is veganism.

Which in turn, the subject is about the treatment of sentient animals, which would also include the poor treatment of humans in cheap labour.

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 12:17:02 PM

Does it bother you that I just ate a burger and enjoyed every bite?

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 12:20:17 PM

Quote from: Lemön cake on May 12, 2015, 12:16:02 PM

Which in turn, the subject is about the treatment of sentient animals, which would also include the poor treatment of humans in cheap labour.

Sure. But I really don't care to discuss that aspect right now. Am I against child labor? Yes. I don't really know how to check if my clothes were made through cheap labor or child labor. I haven't really looked into it, and it's a problem. What else am I supposed to say?

Quote from: Lemön cake on May 12, 2015, 12:17:02 PM

Does it bother you that I just ate a burger and enjoyed every bite?

Not even a little bit. I'm glad that the suffering of the animal you just ate wasn't wasted.

If you want to piss a vegan off, buy a bunch of animal products and then throw them away.

challengerX · May 12, 2015, 01:19:21 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

challengerX · May 12, 2015, 01:20:31 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

King pesto · May 12, 2015, 01:33:31 PM

Quote from: Lemön cake on May 12, 2015, 12:17:02 PM

Does it bother you that I just ate a burger and enjoyed every bite?

stop culturally appropriating my food, bongboy

Yu · May 12, 2015, 02:01:52 PM

Quote from: challengerX on May 12, 2015, 01:20:31 PM

I just threw away a steak because I saw this thread again.

Chally no, thats a waste.

Nick McIntyre · May 12, 2015, 02:03:59 PM

Quote from: challengerX on May 12, 2015, 01:19:21 PM

Quote from: Voro 'Cinotai on May 12, 2015, 10:28:07 AM
Well when my choice to eat something is this...

or this

I think I know what I'm going to to be getting.
Both look pretty tasty.

I'd eat both.

How does rice and mush look good to you?

Yu · May 12, 2015, 02:06:58 PM

Quote from: Voro 'Cinotai on May 12, 2015, 02:03:59 PM

Quote from: challengerX on May 12, 2015, 01:19:21 PM
Quote from: Voro 'Cinotai on May 12, 2015, 10:28:07 AM
Well when my choice to eat something is this...

or this

I think I know what I'm going to to be getting.
Both look pretty tasty.

I'd eat both.

How does rice and mush look good to you?

Since when was judging food base on appearance alone, the best indicator of flavor?

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 02:07:44 PM

Quote from: Yu on May 12, 2015, 02:06:58 PM

Since when was judging food base on appearance alone, the best indicator of flavor?

Childish meat-eater logic.

I remember thinking the same way.

When I was eight.

Yu · May 12, 2015, 02:10:27 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 02:07:44 PM

Quote from: Yu on May 12, 2015, 02:06:58 PM
Since when was judging food base on appearance alone, the best indicator of flavor?
Childish meat-eater logic.

I remember thinking the same way.

When I was eight.

>asking why the vegan dish doesn't look tasty because of appearance
>"Childish meat-eater logic"

I'm talking about all food.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 02:15:49 PM

So am I.

Yu · May 12, 2015, 02:23:12 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 02:15:49 PM

So am I.

Then please, elaborate how appearance alone is the best indicator of flavor.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 02:24:41 PM

Quote from: Yu on May 12, 2015, 02:23:12 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 02:15:49 PM
So am I.
Then please, elaborate how appearance alone is the best indicator of flavor.

Oh, you misinterpreted my post. Read it again. I didn't think it was that hard, but whatever.

I'm not saying YOU are using childish meat-eater logic. I'm saying Voro is. I answered for him.

big sponge · May 12, 2015, 02:27:57 PM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 05:24:51 AM

If you need to rely on dietary supplements and synthetic vitamins to keep your body working properly than your diet is not a healthy or natural one. Sorry, but this is the truth.

I never once implied that natural = healthy as there are many natural diets that you can have that are unhealthy. However, to be a real vegan you have to have a completely natural diet and the fact that you need to rely on supplements and synthetics will prevent you from ever being truly natural thus negating any PETA-like claims that humans aren't supposed to eat meat and veganism is the natural and healthy diet that humans are supposed to have.

No, the way meat is procured in the modern world bears no weight on whether or not eating meat is natural. The omnivorous diet is the one that we've evolved to have and a natural and healthy diet will revolve around getting the proper amounts of vitamins and minerals from all essential food groups. It isn't a coincidence that all of the worlds healthiest diets include some form of animal produce. It's essential to keeping your body 100% fully functional.

If you want to be a vegan for spiritual or "ethical" reasons that's fine. Just don't start claiming the diet is either natural or healthy and try to force people to join you.

Spoiler

As a side note vegans typically don't seem to understand that being omnivorous is both cheaper and more efficient. Veganism is not a practical life style for the vast majority of people in the world.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 02:30:41 PM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 02:27:57 PM

If you need to rely on dietary supplements and synthetic vitamins to keep your body working properly than your diet is not a healthy or natural one. Sorry, but this is the truth.

But it's an ethical one.

And that's ALL that matters.

Yu · May 12, 2015, 02:31:38 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 02:24:41 PM

Quote from: Yu on May 12, 2015, 02:23:12 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 02:15:49 PM
So am I.
Then please, elaborate how appearance alone is the best indicator of flavor.
Oh, you misinterpreted my post. Read it again. I didn't think it was that hard, but whatever.

I'm not saying YOU are using childish meat-eater logic. I'm saying Voro is. I answered for him.

Well shit, clearly I still haven't woken up.

Solonoid · May 12, 2015, 02:34:34 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 02:30:41 PM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 02:27:57 PM
If you need to rely on dietary supplements and synthetic vitamins to keep your body working properly than your diet is not a healthy or natural one. Sorry, but this is the truth.
But it's an ethical one.

And that's ALL that matters.

Will it be ethical when livestock is overpopulous and begis starving to death?

Because without the most successful and ruthless predator on the planet (mankind) the entire ecosystem is thrown out of wack.

People like to believe that mankind is above the ecosystem, that we have ascended out of it.
But truth be told, we're more vital than any other predator on the face of the earth, and now that we have our claws, our structure sunk into the world, there is no way other predators can fill our shoes and keep population in check.

big sponge · May 12, 2015, 02:39:43 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on May 12, 2015, 02:30:41 PM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 02:27:57 PM
If you need to rely on dietary supplements and synthetic vitamins to keep your body working properly than your diet is not a healthy or natural one. Sorry, but this is the truth.
But it's an ethical one.

This is completely fine. I have no problem with people being vegans due to their own set of ethics. If you want to try and convert other people to being vegans and following your set of ethics though force is the wrong way to go about it. So is calling them names and demonizing them for that matter.

You need to unite, not divide. Which is what organizations like PETA don't seem to understand.

Spoiler

Completely different topic, but it's a similar problem that SJWs have. Their base message is good, but they've become so militant and divisive that they drive people away instead of inviting them to learn about and be open to their message. The echo chamber that drives them to the point of almost being delusional doesn't exactly help either.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 02:40:09 PM

Quote from: Soʟoɴoɪᴅ on May 12, 2015, 02:34:34 PM

Will it be ethical when livestock is overpopulous and begis starving to death?

They WON'T. The only reason livestock is so populous now is BECAUSE they are livestock. BECAUSE we mass produce them. Animals do not reproduce naturally the rate at which they do artificially.

Quote

Because without the most successful and ruthless predator on the planet (mankind) the entire ecosystem is thrown out of wack.

[citation needed]

Quote

People like to believe that mankind is above the ecosystem, that we have ascended out of it.

We have.

We have brains. Vegans are using them. Meat-eaters are not.

Verbatim · May 12, 2015, 02:43:23 PM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 02:39:43 PM

This is completely fine. I have no problem with people being vegans due to their own set of ethics. If you want to try and convert other people to being vegans and following your set of ethics though force is the wrong way to go about it. So is calling them names and demonizing them for that matter.

You need to unite, not divide. Which is what organizations like PETA don't seem to understand.

Spoiler
Completely different topic, but it's a similar problem that SJWs have. Their base message is good, but they've become so militant and divisive that they drive people away instead of inviting them to learn about and be open to their message. The echo chamber that drives them to the point of almost being delusional doesn't exactly help either.

I went into that a little bit in the OP. There's a reason so many vegans are militant. It's because we're fed up, and we're angry. We're not going to force anyone to do anything, because we can't, and we're not going to succeed in "converting" anyone no matter how hard we try. It has to be a personal decision. The only thing we can do is present people with arguments.

And when there are people who take all our arguments, understand the position, sympathize with the position, but then just say, "but meat tastes so good!" It's... fucking frustrating, to say the least. It's just a very selfish, myopic thing to say in the face of one of the greatest travesties on the planet. Of course we'll get angry.