Poll

Which one do you think

No
Other

"Morality is subjective"

MyNameIsCharlie | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: MyNameIsCharlie
IP: Logged

7,789 posts
Get of my lawn
Verb, you are a product of today's society. We're programmed from birth to hold certain actions as necessary and others as taboo. There is no natural construct for morality. If you were born in Japan, for instance, suicide isn't the moral taboo as it is here. In China the benefit of the group always trumps the benefit of the individual. In India (though they claim otherwise) the caste system is still very much real and children of the untouchable caste are forced to walk in the gutter if a higher caste is in the sidewalk.

You are choosing to hold yourself to a standard and claiming you have the best set of morals.

I wish there were a universally accepted set of morals. But, sadly, there isn't. What you hold inviolable, another finds trivial. 


 
More Than Mortal
| d-d-d-DANK ✑ πŸ”₯πŸ”₯πŸ”₯ 🌈πŸ‘
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: MetaCognition
ID: Meta Cognition
IP: Logged

15,062 posts
This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Example: even 20 years ago homosexuality was a complete taboo. Homosexuals were routinely attacked and persecuted. Yet today they can marry and be open on who they are. Their attackers are demonized. Last night's shooting even 20 years ago would have barely been page 3 news.
Uh, what?

If morality is objective, it's a corollary that people can be wrong about it. All you've done is demonstrate that there are differing opinions of morality, not that these differing opinions are legitimate. If I held up a creationist as an example of cosmology being subjective you'd rightfully laugh me out of this thread. 


 
Verbatim
| Komm, süßer Tod
 
more |
XBL:
PSN: Verbatim-1
Steam: Jaco230
ID: Verbatim
IP: Logged

48,034 posts
❧
Verb, you are a product of today's society. We're programmed from birth to hold certain actions as necessary and others as taboo. There is no natural construct for morality. If you were born in Japan, for instance, suicide isn't the moral taboo as it is here. In China the benefit of the group always trumps the benefit of the individual. In India (though they claim otherwise) the caste system is still very much real and children of the untouchable caste are forced to walk in the gutter if a higher caste is in the sidewalk.

You are choosing to hold yourself to a standard and claiming you have the best set of morals.

I wish there were a universally accepted set of morals. But, sadly, there isn't. What you hold inviolable, another finds trivial.
See, none of those examples help your argument. You're pointing out that different cultures have different interpretations of ethics--this does not show, prove, or even tend towards the idea that morality is subjective. Merely that, if morality is objective, then all those cultures are either right or wrong. I'm well aware that children are treated like shit in other cultures, and I find that deplorable, because it is deplorable. It's not okay just because they think it's okay. Their culture is shit.

Further, it seems like you're acting as though everybody in these countries thinks the same way. You imply that suicide is considered to be immoral in America, but what you'll actually find is that there is no clear consensus on that subject. I happen to think that suicide is perfectly okay. Sad, sure, but morally permissible. If someone disagrees with that, we can argue about it. Does that mean it isn't objective, because we can argue about it? No.

I already brought up scientists. Many scientists disagree on the nature of reality. There are theoretical physicists who support and back string theory--likewise, there are many critics of string theory. Many physicists argue about the nature of gravity. Mathematicians argue about the nature of math. Biologists argue about the nature of biology.

Does that mean science is subjective? Or something that varies depending on the culture? I don't think so.


MyNameIsCharlie | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: MyNameIsCharlie
IP: Logged

7,789 posts
Get of my lawn
1) I never said right ir wrong. They simply exist. You thinking they are right or wrong is one set of morals viewing another. Morals just are.

2) About science. Science exists separate from morality.

For there to be a universal morality, it would have to come either inherent in our genes, or externally, say from a god or gods. Human history proves it's not in our genes, and humanity can't even agree if there is or the number of gods.

Sadly, the only true thing even close to a universal moral code is preserve your life and the life of your family. That's really it. While we live among technological marvels, we've not made it past tribalism. States, Nations, Religions... They're all nothing more than tribes. We still fight over resources, land and power.

Your particular view on morality is a recent phenomenon. Someone able to think globally. I hope you haven't taken what I said as an attack on you. Far from it. I see hope in you. I hope that there are more and more who either do away with tribalism or expand the tribe to include everyone. That said, you're the exception, not the rule.


 
More Than Mortal
| d-d-d-DANK ✑ πŸ”₯πŸ”₯πŸ”₯ 🌈πŸ‘
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: MetaCognition
ID: Meta Cognition
IP: Logged

15,062 posts
This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
1) I never said right ir wrong. They simply exist. You thinking they are right or wrong is one set of morals viewing another. Morals just are.
I never said you said right or wrong. I'm pointing out that offering us differing opinions on any subject matter doesn't induce subjectivity.

Quote
2) About science. Science exists separate from morality.
Science also lies apart from humanities, does this mean there are no correct answers in history?

Quote
For there to be a universal morality, it would have to come either inherent in our genes, or externally, say from a god or gods.
Universal =/= objective.

We can speak objectively about ontologically subjective facts; we do the same in medicine. I have no idea why you think it's any different here.

Quote
Sadly, the only true thing even close to a universal moral code is preserve your life and the life of your family. That's really it. While we live among technological marvels, we've not made it past tribalism. States, Nations, Religions... They're all nothing more than tribes. We still fight over resources, land and power.
I would ask you, then, whether or not you find it interesting that there appears to be a moral rule which transcends culture? Because that, to me, would hint that there's something non-arbitrary about the ways in which we could prevent unnecessary suffering.

The fact that we are tribal creatures is a modifier to any system of 'objective' morality we want to discover, not a refutation. All that tells is is that there is probably some legitimacy to values like loyalty and parochialism.

To perhaps make it a little easier, let me phrase it another way: ignore the word "objective". This is my argument: there exist courses of action which, when taken, encourages Eudaimonia (or human flourishing/well-being/lack of suffering).  My point is that when we are discussing what we ought to do, the Eudaimonic answer is the only rational one.

It's the only moral code that actually makes sense.