"Gender Identity"

Jocephalopod · May 09, 2015, 02:31:57 PM

just trying to wrap my head around the whole transgender thing.. when a trans person identifies as a gender, are they doing so in the sense of social outlook or on the grounds that there are fundamental and clear cut differences between the personalities of the two sexes.

basically does gender identity fall in line with social stereotypes such as "girls like pink boys like blue"?

and if it does, on what basis does gender have on personality?

this is really fucking frustrating to word

Verbatim · May 09, 2015, 02:39:15 PM

I've always wondered this as well. From my perspective, gender is merely a social construct, and is thus meaningless. Therefore, if a biological male identifies as a female, that really doesn't mean anything. Not a single thing.

All it means is that this person prefers to be referred to as a "she" for x reason.
And that x reason is usually conditional or arbitrary.

The best thing to do, I suppose, would be to ask a transgendered individual what it means to be a boy and what it means to be a girl. The answer, I hypothesize, is likely rooted in their conditioning alone--not by any clear-cut, objective definition, as you illustrated. Because there is no clear-cut definition.

Mr. Psychologist · May 09, 2015, 02:47:24 PM

Hmm, well the obvious part is of course that they are changing their gender from say Male to Female which would involve a mix of shifting stereotyped behaviours (I.e Acting like a man/acting like a woman) and then some of the cultural norms such as dress styles.

So the obvious example would be the man who changes to a woman, then begins to wear a dress and makeup. A nice stereotyped example to make it easy, but traditionally in western society men don't wear dresses and lipstick - women do. So adopting that behaviour instead would be a part of it, but with today's world being a lot more... vague over things like that, people don't quite stick to gender roles as rigidly as they once did I think it tends to matter less <.<

In terms of gender and personality though, that's a bit harder to seperate because you can get all manner of personalities regardless of gender but it does still play a role in shaping it. So someone can be the weepy, soft hearted sort of person when they are male or female and I don't think that would change massively when they adopt a new gender identity.

I think that your gender isn't really decided by your personality though, if that's what the last question was asking >.> I'd say if anything gender can shape a personality but that it's not the deciding factor as personalities tend to be the result of someone's experiences in life (Maybe with a bit of biochemistry thrown in for good deterministic measure)

Jocephalopod · May 09, 2015, 03:04:03 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 09, 2015, 02:47:24 PM

Hmm, well the obvious part is of course that they are changing their gender from say Male to Female which would involve a mix of shifting stereotyped behaviours (I.e Acting like a man/acting like a woman) and then some of the cultural norms such as dress styles.

So the obvious example would be the man who changes to a woman, then begins to wear a dress and makeup. A nice stereotyped example to make it easy, but traditionally in western society men don't wear dresses and lipstick - women do. So adopting that behaviour instead would be a part of it, but with today's world being a lot more... vague over things like that, people don't quite stick to gender roles as rigidly as they once did I think it tends to matter less <.<

In terms of gender and personality though, that's a bit harder to seperate because you can get all manner of personalities regardless of gender but it does still play a role in shaping it. So someone can be the weepy, soft hearted sort of person when they are male or female and I don't think that would change massively when they adopt a new gender identity.

I think that your gender isn't really decided by your personality though, if that's what the last question was asking >.> I'd say if anything gender can shape a personality but that it's not the deciding factor as personalities tend to be the result of someone's experiences in life (Maybe with a bit of biochemistry thrown in for good deterministic measure)

so you're saying gender identity constitutes a change in social outlook based on sexual "stereotypes"?

that could make sense as someone would desire to be seen socially as a man or woman.. yet as we both agree that gender is not decided by personality as it is a social construct, whats the point?

a girl could be raised in the same social parameters as a boy while keeping her biological gender separate from her own personal interests without having to be labeled transgender.

Mr. Psychologist · May 09, 2015, 03:27:34 PM

Quote from: Jocephalopod on May 09, 2015, 03:04:03 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 09, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Hmm, well the obvious part is of course that they are changing their gender from say Male to Female which would involve a mix of shifting stereotyped behaviours (I.e Acting like a man/acting like a woman) and then some of the cultural norms such as dress styles.

So the obvious example would be the man who changes to a woman, then begins to wear a dress and makeup. A nice stereotyped example to make it easy, but traditionally in western society men don't wear dresses and lipstick - women do. So adopting that behaviour instead would be a part of it, but with today's world being a lot more... vague over things like that, people don't quite stick to gender roles as rigidly as they once did I think it tends to matter less <.<

In terms of gender and personality though, that's a bit harder to seperate because you can get all manner of personalities regardless of gender but it does still play a role in shaping it. So someone can be the weepy, soft hearted sort of person when they are male or female and I don't think that would change massively when they adopt a new gender identity.

I think that your gender isn't really decided by your personality though, if that's what the last question was asking >.> I'd say if anything gender can shape a personality but that it's not the deciding factor as personalities tend to be the result of someone's experiences in life (Maybe with a bit of biochemistry thrown in for good deterministic measure)

so your saying gender identity constitutes a change in social outlook based on sexual "stereotypes"?

that could make sense as someone would desire to be seen socially as a man or woman.. yet as we both agree that gender is not decided by personality as it is a social construct, whats the point?

a girl could be raised in the same social parameters as a boy while keeping her biological gender separate from her own personal interests without having to be labeled transgender.

Hmm, loosely yeah. There is a bit more too it perhaps but it reduces down to schemas of how a person should be when they are male or female. So stereotypes tie into that along with gender roles and physiology.

From an objective standpoint, there isn't much point in specifying gender and gender roles because it is in part a social construct, but that doesn't necessarily make it useless. Because it's a social construct it's used as a frame of reference by society as a whole to give labels to things, which is something humans sure do love to do as a species. For simpler purposes, being able to refer to someone as male or female is useful for specifying whom you are referring to.

I think it's mostly just a part of fitting in to the larger picture, the overwhelming majority of humans can be divided into Male or Female (biologically) so a gender that is Male or Female fits with that, someone who is neither is outside of the group which isn't beneficial for long term survival/interaction <.<

The last part sounds a bit like the mirror of an infamous case study
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
This poor bugger lost his penis to a circumcision fuckup so his parents decided to raise him as a girl, which was used to claim that it meant gender identity was learned and not innate/related to biological sex, except it didn't really work and the chap became a chap (So like, reverse-transgender) but ended up so screwed up by the experience of it all that he ended up committing suicide <.<

A person's gender identity most likely comes from some of the innate biology (I.e hormone levels) which results in certain patterns of behaviour (Such as male aggression) which then allows that person to fit in with the 'group' of a similar gender identity.

So I think one of the theories to do with the cause of transgenderism is abnormal hormone exposure in the womb, so if this abnormal exposure results in a male infant (i.e, has male genitalia) being set with a female 'brain/mind' then this disconnect can be 'fixed' by the male undergoing the transformation so that their biological sex is cosmetically female (You can't change chromosomes etc), their gender is female and their mind (Not necessarily brain) identifies as female they are in effect a female instead of a male for most intents and purposes outside of clinical/scientific.

DAS B00T x2 · May 09, 2015, 03:43:01 PM

Psy got most of the biology part right.
I'm running on old data here, but there is a difference in brain composition for men and women, and those who experience severe gender dysphoria tend to have a brain make-up more like the gender they identify with as opposed to their biological sex.

Jocephalopod · May 09, 2015, 03:44:59 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 09, 2015, 03:27:34 PM

Quote from: Jocephalopod on May 09, 2015, 03:04:03 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 09, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Hmm, well the obvious part is of course that they are changing their gender from say Male to Female which would involve a mix of shifting stereotyped behaviours (I.e Acting like a man/acting like a woman) and then some of the cultural norms such as dress styles.

So the obvious example would be the man who changes to a woman, then begins to wear a dress and makeup. A nice stereotyped example to make it easy, but traditionally in western society men don't wear dresses and lipstick - women do. So adopting that behaviour instead would be a part of it, but with today's world being a lot more... vague over things like that, people don't quite stick to gender roles as rigidly as they once did I think it tends to matter less <.<

In terms of gender and personality though, that's a bit harder to seperate because you can get all manner of personalities regardless of gender but it does still play a role in shaping it. So someone can be the weepy, soft hearted sort of person when they are male or female and I don't think that would change massively when they adopt a new gender identity.

I think that your gender isn't really decided by your personality though, if that's what the last question was asking >.> I'd say if anything gender can shape a personality but that it's not the deciding factor as personalities tend to be the result of someone's experiences in life (Maybe with a bit of biochemistry thrown in for good deterministic measure)

so your saying gender identity constitutes a change in social outlook based on sexual "stereotypes"?

that could make sense as someone would desire to be seen socially as a man or woman.. yet as we both agree that gender is not decided by personality as it is a social construct, whats the point?

a girl could be raised in the same social parameters as a boy while keeping her biological gender separate from her own personal interests without having to be labeled transgender.
Hmm, loosely yeah. There is a bit more too it perhaps but it reduces down to schemas of how a person should be when they are male or female. So stereotypes tie into that along with gender roles and physiology.

From an objective standpoint, there isn't much point in specifying gender and gender roles because it is in part a social construct, but that doesn't necessarily make it useless. Because it's a social construct it's used as a frame of reference by society as a whole to give labels to things, which is something humans sure do love to do as a species. For simpler purposes, being able to refer to someone as male or female is useful for specifying whom you are referring to.

I think it's mostly just a part of fitting in to the larger picture, the overwhelming majority of humans can be divided into Male or Female (biologically) so a gender that is Male or Female fits with that, someone who is neither is outside of the group which isn't beneficial for long term survival/interaction <.<

The last part sounds a bit like the mirror of an infamous case study
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
This poor bugger lost his penis to a circumcision fuckup so his parents decided to raise him as a girl, which was used to claim that it meant gender identity was learned and not innate/related to biological sex, except it didn't really work and the chap became a chap (So like, reverse-transgender) but ended up so screwed up by the experience of it all that he ended up committing suicide <.<

A person's gender identity most likely comes from some of the innate biology (I.e hormone levels) which results in certain patterns of behaviour (Such as male aggression) which then allows that person to fit in with the 'group' of a similar gender identity.

So I think one of the theories to do with the cause of transgenderism is abnormal hormone exposure in the womb, so if this abnormal exposure results in a male infant (i.e, has male genitalia) being set with a female 'brain/mind' then this disconnect can be 'fixed' by the male undergoing the transformation so that their biological sex is cosmetically female (You can't change chromosomes etc), their gender is female and their mind (Not necessarily brain) identifies as female they are in effect a female instead of a male for most intents and purposes outside of clinical/scientific.

well, that makes sense

Mr. Psychologist · May 09, 2015, 04:11:05 PM

Quote from: Jocephalopod on May 09, 2015, 03:44:59 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 09, 2015, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: Jocephalopod on May 09, 2015, 03:04:03 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on May 09, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Hmm, well the obvious part is of course that they are changing their gender from say Male to Female which would involve a mix of shifting stereotyped behaviours (I.e Acting like a man/acting like a woman) and then some of the cultural norms such as dress styles.

So the obvious example would be the man who changes to a woman, then begins to wear a dress and makeup. A nice stereotyped example to make it easy, but traditionally in western society men don't wear dresses and lipstick - women do. So adopting that behaviour instead would be a part of it, but with today's world being a lot more... vague over things like that, people don't quite stick to gender roles as rigidly as they once did I think it tends to matter less <.<

In terms of gender and personality though, that's a bit harder to seperate because you can get all manner of personalities regardless of gender but it does still play a role in shaping it. So someone can be the weepy, soft hearted sort of person when they are male or female and I don't think that would change massively when they adopt a new gender identity.

I think that your gender isn't really decided by your personality though, if that's what the last question was asking >.> I'd say if anything gender can shape a personality but that it's not the deciding factor as personalities tend to be the result of someone's experiences in life (Maybe with a bit of biochemistry thrown in for good deterministic measure)

so your saying gender identity constitutes a change in social outlook based on sexual "stereotypes"?

that could make sense as someone would desire to be seen socially as a man or woman.. yet as we both agree that gender is not decided by personality as it is a social construct, whats the point?

a girl could be raised in the same social parameters as a boy while keeping her biological gender separate from her own personal interests without having to be labeled transgender.
Hmm, loosely yeah. There is a bit more too it perhaps but it reduces down to schemas of how a person should be when they are male or female. So stereotypes tie into that along with gender roles and physiology.

From an objective standpoint, there isn't much point in specifying gender and gender roles because it is in part a social construct, but that doesn't necessarily make it useless. Because it's a social construct it's used as a frame of reference by society as a whole to give labels to things, which is something humans sure do love to do as a species. For simpler purposes, being able to refer to someone as male or female is useful for specifying whom you are referring to.

I think it's mostly just a part of fitting in to the larger picture, the overwhelming majority of humans can be divided into Male or Female (biologically) so a gender that is Male or Female fits with that, someone who is neither is outside of the group which isn't beneficial for long term survival/interaction <.<

The last part sounds a bit like the mirror of an infamous case study
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
This poor bugger lost his penis to a circumcision fuckup so his parents decided to raise him as a girl, which was used to claim that it meant gender identity was learned and not innate/related to biological sex, except it didn't really work and the chap became a chap (So like, reverse-transgender) but ended up so screwed up by the experience of it all that he ended up committing suicide <.<

A person's gender identity most likely comes from some of the innate biology (I.e hormone levels) which results in certain patterns of behaviour (Such as male aggression) which then allows that person to fit in with the 'group' of a similar gender identity.

So I think one of the theories to do with the cause of transgenderism is abnormal hormone exposure in the womb, so if this abnormal exposure results in a male infant (i.e, has male genitalia) being set with a female 'brain/mind' then this disconnect can be 'fixed' by the male undergoing the transformation so that their biological sex is cosmetically female (You can't change chromosomes etc), their gender is female and their mind (Not necessarily brain) identifies as female they are in effect a female instead of a male for most intents and purposes outside of clinical/scientific.

well, that makes sense

Ah good, It could be all wrong mind you but that's roughly how I have it set <.<