"Compelled" Speech

eggsalad | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
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So often in discussions pertaining to free speech I hear this term thrown out in attempts to justify why someone might condone some forms of speech restriction but not others. Of course I am alluding to people who condone preexisting regulations on hate-speech in regards to race, but not also condoning such regulations in regards to gender identity.

The argument typically goes that in the case of race it is merely restricted speech. That you are not permitted to say specific words that we consider to be racial slurs or discriminatory language. They present this as being different from the case of gender identity, specifically gendered pronouns. Supposedly because you are "forced" or "compelled" to use specific words, in this case a person's preferred pronouns. But are you really?

I have not seen a single policy that explicitly states one must refer to someone specifically by the pronoun they prefer. One merely cannot persistently apply pronouns to a person that they are not comfortable with. If a person says they would prefer to be referred to as "he", that is not an immediate obligation upon you to refer to him as "he". You can refer to him with his name. You structure your sentences such that you do not need to use pronouns. You can avoid talking about him in the third person. You merely cannot refer to him as "she".

So how exactly is this "compelling" or "forcing" you to say something specifically; at least, any more than current speech restrictions are?

If you can claim that this is compelled speech, why can I not claim that me not being able to call my coworkers racial slurs is a form of compelled speech? Why can I not claim that I am being compelled to refer to coworkers as things that are specifically not racial slurs? In saying that I cannot call someone a racial slur, you are saying that I "must" refer to them as something that is not a racial slur.
Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:51:32 PM by eggsalad


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
There's a reason "he" and "she" exist. It's easier to use those words than to form the sentence differently, or maybe the person you're speaking to doesn't know their name, or forgets names a lot. It's convenient. Calling someone a nigger isn't convenient, its only use is malicious. You can argue calling someone who identifies as female but is a male "he" is malicious, but calling someone "he/him" is not inherently malicious. Huge difference.


eggsalad | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
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There's a reason "he" and "she" exist. It's easier to use those words than to form the sentence differently, or maybe the person you're speaking to doesn't know their name, or forgets names a lot. It's convenient. Calling someone a nigger isn't convenient

Speaking from your own biases here. Some old cunt from 1940 probably could just as easily feel that "nigger" does come off the tongue easily, and being able to just say "nigger" instead of otherwise describing a person is incredibly convenient.

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its only use is malicious.

The person who wants to use it may claim they don't mean it in a malicious way. "Nigger" is just how they describe black people. To them "nigger" could just means someone has dark skin.

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You can argue calling someone who identifies as female but is a male "he" is malicious
Yeah that's sort of the point.

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but calling someone "he/him" is not inherently malicious
Never claimed as such. I don't see how something not being inherently malicious means we can't address situations in which it is malicious. Hell, "nigger" isn't inherently malicious either. It can be said for historical or contextual reasons, like it is right now, ironically.

And all of this just seems to be arguments why one should be restricted and the other not, but doesn't really tell me why one is "compelled" speech and the other not, which is more what I intended to be the scope of this conversation.
Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 11:55:27 AM by eggsalad


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
Speaking from your own biases here. Some old cunt from 1940 probably could just as easily feel that "nigger" does come off the tongue easily, and being able to just say "nigger" instead of otherwise describing a person is incredibly convenient.
Whether or not "nigger" rolls off the tongue doesn't make it a word that's used for convenience or one of the main every day words in the English language. "Nigger" could be erased from the world and the English language would be fine, not the case for "he/she".

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The person who wants to use it may claim they don't mean it in a malicious way. "Nigger" is just how they describe black people. To them "nigger" could just means someone has dark skin.
lmao find me a person like this. I'll wait. "Nigger" is a discriminatory word which comes from "negro" in Spanish which means black. Calling someone a negro was once upon a time ok to do, it isn't today. So calling someone a negro/nigger is inherently malicious.

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Yeah that's sort of the point.
There was no need to cut that sort of my post, my sentence wasn't finished and it's as if you're interrupting me mid sentence while I'm trying to make a point. So either you have bad manners or you're trying to make it seem like you have more to say than you actually do.

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Never claimed as such.
No shit. Had you not cut my post up you wouldn't look like a dumbass and be saying stupid shit like this.

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I don't see how something not being inherently malicious means we can't address situations in which it is malicious.
I didn't say otherwise. I'm trying to let you know why there's a huge difference between calling some a nigger and "misgenderi g" someone.

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Hell, "nigger" isn't inherently malicious either. It can be said for historical or contextual reasons, like it is right now, ironically.
We're still talking about how malicious it is. We're not calling people niggers, but we fully recognize that it is a racial slur and nothing else.

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And all of this just seems to be arguments why one should be restricted and the other not, but doesn't really tell me why one is "compelled" speech and the other not, which is more what I intended to be the scope of this conversation.
What should be restricted? Me referring to you as "he/him"? Restricted how? I can say nigger all I want, too. All using "bigoted" language results in is social ostracism. You're not arrested for any of this, and rightly so. Unless I'm calling for death to all niggers/trannies and I have a stash of weapons, there's no reason to arrest me.
Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 01:18:47 PM by challengerX


Desty | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Saying nigger is fine for old people who still see white people as the real race. Think about it, you'd refer to everyone as something else, but your own kind as the standard. "he's a nigger" "he's a mexican", but you wouldn't say "he's a white just like us and everybody else", because there's no reason to give it any attention. If we remove the reason there needs to be a divide between "the normal people" and "people of color", then we also remove remove the context where we call people mexicans or africans, or Puerto Ricans.

If I'm describing a person to someone else, then I'll talk about interests or whatever and what kind of vibe they give off. If they're gonna search for the person, I'm gonna tell them they're black or Caucasian, along with features like a big nose, bushy eyebrows etc.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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Well, context is key for one. Calling someone a patently hateful racial epithet is pretty cut and dry. Misgendering someone could be a simple misunderstanding. Even if it was intentional, it could simply boil down to a matter of personal belief, and nothing relating to hatred or incitement of violence to an individual. Not to mention you have to actually prove the speech was for malicious intent.

So I'm not entirely sure how you would go about legally compelling people not to misgender someone. It's too much of a grey area.


 
Verbatim
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Well, context is key for one. Calling someone a patently hateful racial epithet is pretty cut and dry. Misgendering someone could be a simple misunderstanding. Even if it was intentional, it could simply boil down to a matter of personal belief, and nothing relating to hatred or incitement of violence to an individual. Not to mention you have to actually prove the speech was for malicious intent.

So I'm not entirely sure how you would go about legally compelling people not to misgender someone. It's too much of a grey area.
it is my personal belief, nothing relating to hatred or incitement of violence, that your name is "fuckbrain"

you have to prove that this speech is for malicious intent to compel me otherwise


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Well, context is key for one. Calling someone a patently hateful racial epithet is pretty cut and dry. Misgendering someone could be a simple misunderstanding. Even if it was intentional, it could simply boil down to a matter of personal belief, and nothing relating to hatred or incitement of violence to an individual. Not to mention you have to actually prove the speech was for malicious intent.

So I'm not entirely sure how you would go about legally compelling people not to misgender someone. It's too much of a grey area.
it is my personal belief, nothing relating to hatred or incitement of violence, that your name is "fuckbrain"

you have to prove that this speech is for malicious intent to compel me otherwise
Oh shit I just got nae nae'd :-0


 
Verbatim
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Well, context is key for one. Calling someone a patently hateful racial epithet is pretty cut and dry. Misgendering someone could be a simple misunderstanding. Even if it was intentional, it could simply boil down to a matter of personal belief, and nothing relating to hatred or incitement of violence to an individual. Not to mention you have to actually prove the speech was for malicious intent.

So I'm not entirely sure how you would go about legally compelling people not to misgender someone. It's too much of a grey area.
it is my personal belief, nothing relating to hatred or incitement of violence, that your name is "fuckbrain"

you have to prove that this speech is for malicious intent to compel me otherwise
Oh shit I just got nae nae'd :-0
you should be used to it by now, fuckbrain

as long as you're comfortable with that logic, i'm sure we can roll with that

well no, never mind, because your whole point is that it's okay to ignore personal comfort

and i wholeheartedly agree with you, fuckbrain
Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 11:24:56 AM by Verbatim


 
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>he thinks his precious feels trump muh persronal buleeps 😂

i also don't personally recognize you as a human being, so i'm going to start using "it" pronouns for anyone like you

is that okay with you? wait, it doesn't matter
Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 11:43:18 AM by Verbatim


Dietrich Six | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Excuse me, I'm full of dog poison
Wut


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Speaking from your own biases here. Some old cunt from 1940 probably could just as easily feel that "nigger" does come off the tongue easily, and being able to just say "nigger" instead of otherwise describing a person is incredibly convenient.
Whether or not "nigger" rolls off the tongue doesn't make it a word that's used for convenience or one of the main every day words in the English language. "Nigger" could be erased from the world and the English language would be fine, not the case for "he/she".

Maybe "nigger" used to be the acceptable way to refer to a black person, but it fell out of use by the insistence of black people that it be stopped. It didn't just happen naturally; the acceptability of the phrase had to be intentionally erased. I imagine we're seeing the same thing here, where maybe it's currently okay (but really not) to intentionally refer to an open transperson by a pronoun or name they don't prefer, and they're fighting against it so that in X number of years people will see it as as hateful of an intention as using the word "nigger".


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
Speaking from your own biases here. Some old cunt from 1940 probably could just as easily feel that "nigger" does come off the tongue easily, and being able to just say "nigger" instead of otherwise describing a person is incredibly convenient.
Whether or not "nigger" rolls off the tongue doesn't make it a word that's used for convenience or one of the main every day words in the English language. "Nigger" could be erased from the world and the English language would be fine, not the case for "he/she".

Maybe "nigger" used to be the acceptable way to refer to a black person, but it fell out of use by the insistence of black people that it be stopped. It didn't just happen naturally; the acceptability of the phrase had to be intentionally erased. I imagine we're seeing the same thing here, where maybe it's currently okay (but really not) to intentionally refer to an open transperson by a pronoun or name they don't prefer, and they're fighting against it so that in X number of years people will see it as as hateful of an intention as using the word "nigger".
I can't believe I have to explain this a second time. "He/she" isn't a slur. "Nigger" is a racial slur. In no old documents was it used officially, they'd almost always say "negro". Using the "wrong pronoun" is at worst a mistake or misunderstanding on the speaker's part. And even if it's used maliciously on purpose, it's still in no way comparable to hundreds of years of oppression and slavery. Maybe they've been denied jobs and housing, and some have even been killed just for being trans, but it's not the same. They have always had rights, they're not descendants of slaves and the ones that pass for the most part I assume have no issues in day to day life. So this is a ridiculous comparison.


 
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why is it a contest


 
Verbatim
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what is the appropriate number of holocausts that a group of people must endure before you're allowed to treat them with any dignity or respect as human beings without coming across as an SJW or something

two? three? just one? or is it case by case

how many trans people need to be killed in order for society to collectively take issue with it

what's the minimum number for it to be considered "the same" and therefore worthy of outrage
Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 05:33:33 AM by Verbatim


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Israel can't afford to lose a war because there would be another holocaust then.


Dietrich Six | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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I mean, my dad used to call us little girls when we were younger and I have a huge masculinity complex because of it, my older brother was especially affected.

Don't misgender people.


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
why is it a contest
Because trans people are trying to make it out to be like they've had it as hard as the blacks. It's just not true.
what is the appropriate number of holocausts that a group of people must endure before you're allowed to treat them with any dignity or respect as human beings without coming across as an SJW or something

two? three? just one? or is it case by case

how many trans people need to be killed in order for society to collectively take issue with it

what's the minimum number for it to be considered "the same" and therefore worthy of outrage
It's not about that. It's about how them behaving as if me calling OP a he is equivalent to calling a black person a nigger. It's fucked up (I guess) but it's not anywhere near as bad. You're not dehumanizing a trans person by "misgendering". They're still a person, you're not calling them a subhuman. There's a huge difference, even if it can be malicious.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Speaking from your own biases here. Some old cunt from 1940 probably could just as easily feel that "nigger" does come off the tongue easily, and being able to just say "nigger" instead of otherwise describing a person is incredibly convenient.
Whether or not "nigger" rolls off the tongue doesn't make it a word that's used for convenience or one of the main every day words in the English language. "Nigger" could be erased from the world and the English language would be fine, not the case for "he/she".

Maybe "nigger" used to be the acceptable way to refer to a black person, but it fell out of use by the insistence of black people that it be stopped. It didn't just happen naturally; the acceptability of the phrase had to be intentionally erased. I imagine we're seeing the same thing here, where maybe it's currently okay (but really not) to intentionally refer to an open transperson by a pronoun or name they don't prefer, and they're fighting against it so that in X number of years people will see it as as hateful of an intention as using the word "nigger".
Calling someone a he when they don't want to be called a he is hardly comparable to a racial slur with hundreds of years of historic prejudice and hostility behind it.

I mean, it's a pretty fucking reductionist way of looking at this. I'm not trivialising trans people's experiences but it's insulting to draw an equivalence between the two.


 
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I'm not trivialising trans people's experiences
yeah you are


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
I'm not trivialising trans people's experiences
yeah you are
How come I knew EXACTLY what you were going to quote.

Christ you're predictable.


 
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am i predictable or are your talking points just that easy to dismiss

you're right though i should try mixing it up by being wrong sometimes
Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 03:32:39 PM by Verbatim


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
im so edgy and cool by not quoting people and typing in lower case without punctuation

look

at

me

am i verbatim yet


 
Verbatim
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i feel like you have to know you're spouting patent bullshit when you can literally predict the parts of your post that people are going to have problems with, like you subconsciously know you fucked up but don't admit it because of cheap internet pride or whatever, yet make no effort to preemptively respond

because normally, when i anticipate a response, i literally preempt it and say "i know what you're thinking, but here's why you're still mistaken..."

not only does this waste less time, it also demonstrates confidence and that i actually believe what i'm saying, and that i've heard all the most common arguments and am prepared to refute them all
Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 03:41:49 PM by Verbatim


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
holy shit how am i STILL not verbatim


 
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you shouldn't even have to really point out that you're not trivializing anyone's strife

had you left that tidbit out of your post, you'd be able to keep your bigotry and ignorance a little less transparent, because we all kind of understand where we're all coming from here

it's when you say stuff like that which makes me think thou doth protest too much and that you're just trying to save face by being less than 100% honest about how you really feel about all of this

"not to downplay your strife" is just sleight of hand, it's a sneaky and facile way to get the opposition on their good side, despite the fact that you couldn't actually be fucked about trans issues and don't even recognize them AT ALL, let alone take them seriously

it's either that or you're just lazy and not very good at this whole thing but we both knew that already
Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 03:50:45 PM by Verbatim


 
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the bottom line is that turkey wasn't trying to say that they're equivalent

they're just both shitty, and the fact that you need a holocaust to happen in order to take them seriously is kind of disgusting

it's actually EXTREMELY disgusting, but you know, i'm kind of numb to all this faggoty right wing bullshit at this point
Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 03:52:47 PM by Verbatim


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
please let me be you


 
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how can you not see that saying "WOW THAT'S SO DISGUSTING THAT YOU COMPARED SLAVERY TO SJWs" is a fucking bitchmade bullshit way to argue

it has to be some kind of logical fallacy, it almost feels like an emotional appeal because you're allowing your personal outrage and disgust over the comparison to cloud the actual argument being made:

that it doesn't matter how bad it gets, you don't get to say "nigger" without social consequences and there should be equal consequences for not respecting someone's gender identity

you can talk all you want about how "nigger" is worse and all that, but the ultimate point being made is that they're extremely fucking rude and cunty things to do and say to someone, and that's what the subject is

that's the only thing being argued here and you're trying to derail it into something else and it's just retarded
Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 04:04:49 PM by Verbatim


 
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would anyone else like to get demolished today