"All we ask is that Europe give Greece a chance"

 
Isara
| Forum Architect
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Isara
IP: Logged

2,220 posts
 
An article written by Y. Dragasakis, E. Tsakalotos and Y. Varoufakis on the financial times explains the situation, and ongoing dealings.
Quote
It is a common belief that the Greek government is seeking special treatment relative to other stressed eurozone members. We are not; we are seeking equal treatment.

Since the onset of the crisis, our economy has shrunk 26 per cent; unemployment has risen from 8 to 26 per cent; and wages have declined 33 per cent. These outcomes are worse than those experienced by any country during the 1930s and far worse than those projected under the two Greek adjustment programmes. This is why the Greek government has criticised these programmes.

Our fiscal adjustment has been larger than in other countries. Since 2009, spending cuts and tax increases amounting to more than 45 per cent of household disposable income have been implemented. In Portugal it was 20 per cent; in Italy and Ireland 15 per cent.

Not only have the fiscal measures been larger, but for each percentage point of consolidation, the economy has contracted more. This is because the Greek economy is less open than others; any decline in demand hits domestically produced goods more than imports. Successive rounds of austerity exacerbated the contraction in gross domestic product. And with that the ratio of debt-to-GDP rises, making debt dynamics unmanageable. Greece is borrowing ever more to pay back earlier debts.

Full article (behind paywall): http://t.co/Q4vTnQ3YEP
Original tweet: https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/577862187613626368
An article discussing the contents: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/18/greek-govt-vp-to-ft-all-we-ask-is-that-europe-give-greece-a-chance/
Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 07:40:44 AM by Isara


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Madman Mordo
IP: Logged

7,258 posts
emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
Quote
Since the onset of the crisis, our economy has shrunk 26 per cent; unemployment has risen from 8 to 26 per cent; and wages have declined 33 per cent.
Yeah, I fucking wonder why.

If Greece can show actual commitment to the austerity plan given by the Eurozone, then by all means, they deserve a second chance. Given their history though, and the recently elected anti austerity government, it'll be a cold day in hell before that happens.


 
Isara
| Forum Architect
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Isara
IP: Logged

2,220 posts
 
I agree with that, and what makes it worse is that the EU probably was aware of what was going on. Many people were involved with the deal. I think what's currently needed is for the new government to earn trust and properly use that trust.

Quote
Since the onset of the crisis, our economy has shrunk 26 per cent; unemployment has risen from 8 to 26 per cent; and wages have declined 33 per cent.
Yeah, I fucking wonder why.

If Greece can show actual commitment to the austerity plan given by the Eurozone, then by all means, they deserve a second chance. Given their history though, and the recently elected anti austerity government, it'll be a cold day in hell before that happens.


Not Comms Officer | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: CAESAR JIHADIVS
ID: CAESAR JIHADIVS
IP: Logged

4,736 posts
Khilafah420
Greece has a lot of reforms to do. The fact that many citizens were avoiding paying taxes to the Government is pretty much why Greece is in the shit it's in today.

They want a Socialist system, but they didn't want to pay any of the costs towards creating one.


 
Isara
| Forum Architect
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Isara
IP: Logged

2,220 posts
 
What? First of all, members of the government were involved in tax-dodging, secondly, all Greeks that are paying taxes (that is most of Greece anyway) in the recent years have been choked with taxes. Secondly, why should the Greeks pay to save the Greek banks that in turn are doing nothing to improve the situation, or to pay for a corrupt government that basically destroyed any services it offered that were at least working to save its own ass?

It begs the question; do you really want to pay for a government that (a) has empty promises (b) is known to be corrupt (c) regardless will follow the measures from Troika and (d) the services will nonetheless get worse, no matter how much you pay. With all these conditions, do you really think that people who struggle to pay their personal debt will be also willing to pay any taxes that are also expensive? No! That's why it only got worse since the clever measures taken by the government by using the excuse that it was Troika's fault.

Because that's how it was since 2010 when they "improved" by simply forcing the small fish to pay. That's also something that the Tsipras government is setting in place to study, and investigate. (According to one of his parliamentary speeches post-elections)

Greece has a lot of reforms to do. The fact that many citizens were avoiding paying taxes to the Government is pretty much why Greece is in the shit it's in today.

They want a Socialist system, but they didn't want to pay any of the costs towards creating one.
Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 06:49:02 PM by Isara


Not Comms Officer | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: CAESAR JIHADIVS
ID: CAESAR JIHADIVS
IP: Logged

4,736 posts
Khilafah420
What? First of all, members of the government were involved in tax-dodging, secondly, all Greeks that are paying taxes (that is most of Greece anyway) in the recent years have been choked with taxes. Secondly, why should the Greeks pay to save the Greek banks that in turn are doing nothing to improve the situation, or to pay for a corrupt government that basically destroyed any services it offered that were at least working to save its own ass?

It begs the question; do you really want to pay for a government that (a) has empty promises (b) is known to be corrupt (c) regardless will follow the measures from Troika and (d) the services will nonetheless get worse, no matter how much you pay.

Because that's how it was since 2010 when they "improved" by simply forcing the small fish to pay.

Greece has a lot of reforms to do. The fact that many citizens were avoiding paying taxes to the Government is pretty much why Greece is in the shit it's in today.

They want a Socialist system, but they didn't want to pay any of the costs towards creating one.
I am including the Government as well in this. My one aunt there (who is in her 80s) had to wait 2 years in line just to get a knee surgery just because she is poor, while all of the rich people simply bribed the doctors so they could get in front of line. Corruption in Greece is horrible, but refusing to pay taxes won't make the situation better at all.


 
Isara
| Forum Architect
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Isara
IP: Logged

2,220 posts
 
That's the issue, the majority of Greece lives in Athens and the majority of Athens has not so much money anymore. How can people with little money pay the taxes of a government that they naturally hate, and that also would be more than eager to shake them for some cents just to throw in the black pit until the next few months when the payments are due.

No, it doesn't improve the situation, but it's not right for people to be treated like idiots by a democratically-elected government.

I am including the Government as well in this. My one aunt there (who is in her 80s) had to wait 2 years in line just to get a knee surgery just because she is poor, while all of the rich people simply bribed the doctors so they could get in front of line. Corruption in Greece is horrible, but refusing to pay taxes won't make the situation better at all.


Not Comms Officer | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: CAESAR JIHADIVS
ID: CAESAR JIHADIVS
IP: Logged

4,736 posts
Khilafah420
That's the issue, the majority of Greece lives in Athens and the majority of Athens has not so much money anymore. How can people with little money pay the taxes of a government that they naturally hate, and that also would be more than eager to shake them for some cents just to throw in the black pit until the next few months when the payments are due.

No, it doesn't improve the situation, but it's not right for people to be treated like idiots by a democratically-elected government.

I am including the Government as well in this. My one aunt there (who is in her 80s) had to wait 2 years in line just to get a knee surgery just because she is poor, while all of the rich people simply bribed the doctors so they could get in front of line. Corruption in Greece is horrible, but refusing to pay taxes won't make the situation better at all.
I see..

Yes, my Athenian relatives are having plenty of experiences involving the Greek Government trying to screw them over financially. Like, another relative of mine who is currently 70, and is living both off of his pension from being a General in the Greek Army, and a pension from him heading a large company is now being forced to sacrifice one of his pensions. And that 80-year old relative I mentioned got screwed out of her only pension, since the Government is trying to claim that she hasn't lived in Greece for the 20 or so years required to receive a pension, when she has been living there for 20 years (she previously lived in Mozambique).

And then once you get out of Athens, it instantly gets a lot better.

Goddamn, I have so many interesting stories from Greece despite the fact that I've only been there for 4 months total in my life....

Anyways, you are right that people shouldn't be treated like idiots by their elected Government. Greece is the single most corrupt country in the EU, and it's fucking terrible.


BrenMan 94 | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
more |
XBL: BrenMan 94
PSN:
Steam: BrenMan 94
ID: BrenMan 94
IP: Logged

1,891 posts
 
^ Democracy at work.


🂿 | Mythic Unfrigginbelievable!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Decimator Omega
IP: Logged

22,325 posts
 
Greece isn't the only country that's fucked.


ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ | Mythic Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: TrussingDoor
IP: Logged

7,705 posts
"A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us'."
-Saint Anthony the Great
This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.


Not Comms Officer | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: CAESAR JIHADIVS
ID: CAESAR JIHADIVS
IP: Logged

4,736 posts
Khilafah420
That's the issue, the majority of Greece lives in Athens and the majority of Athens has not so much money anymore. How can people with little money pay the taxes of a government that they naturally hate, and that also would be more than eager to shake them for some cents just to throw in the black pit until the next few months when the payments are due.

No, it doesn't improve the situation, but it's not right for people to be treated like idiots by a democratically-elected government.

I am including the Government as well in this. My one aunt there (who is in her 80s) had to wait 2 years in line just to get a knee surgery just because she is poor, while all of the rich people simply bribed the doctors so they could get in front of line. Corruption in Greece is horrible, but refusing to pay taxes won't make the situation better at all.
I see..

Yes, my Athenian relatives are having plenty of experiences involving the Greek Government trying to screw them over financially. Like, another relative of mine who is currently 70, and is living both off of his pension from being a General in the Greek Army, and a pension from him heading a large company is now being forced to sacrifice one of his pensions. And that 80-year old relative I mentioned got screwed out of her only pension, since the Government is trying to claim that she hasn't lived in Greece for the 20 or so years required to receive a pension, when she has been living there for 20 years (she previously lived in Mozambique).

And then once you get out of Athens, it instantly gets a lot better.

Goddamn, I have so many interesting stories from Greece despite the fact that I've only been there for 4 months total in my life....

Anyways, you are right that people shouldn't be treated like idiots by their elected Government. Greece is the single most corrupt country in the EU, and it's fucking terrible.
that's impossible

it's literally impossible to be more corrupt than Brussels
Nope.


 
Isara
| Forum Architect
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Isara
IP: Logged

2,220 posts
 
Greece isn't the most corrupt country, I think that the crisis simply amplified the underlying issues, and exposed them to the open.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

it's literally impossible to be more corrupt than Brussels


Not Comms Officer | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: CAESAR JIHADIVS
ID: CAESAR JIHADIVS
IP: Logged

4,736 posts
Khilafah420
Greece isn't the most corrupt country, I think that the crisis simply amplified the underlying issues, and exposed them to the open.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

it's literally impossible to be more corrupt than Brussels
Not in the world, but in the EU. Or were you talking to Arm the Mod exclusively?


 
Isara
| Forum Architect
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam:
ID: Isara
IP: Logged

2,220 posts
 
Honestly, I think the much larger governments of Romania and Italy, also have deeper stories of corruption.

Not in the world, but in the EU. Or were you talking to Arm the Mod exclusively?


Sylvie | Respected Posting Riot
 
more |
XBL: >consoles
PSN: >consoles
Steam: /id/sylviebutt
ID: Sylvie
IP: Logged

503 posts
As if they haven't already had an opportunity to show us they're willing to commit.
I don't even understand who let them into the Eurozone in the first place.


Not Comms Officer | Legendary Invincible!
 
more |
XBL:
PSN:
Steam: CAESAR JIHADIVS
ID: CAESAR JIHADIVS
IP: Logged

4,736 posts
Khilafah420
As if they haven't already had an opportunity to show us they're willing to commit.
I don't even understand who let them into the Eurozone in the first place.
They weren't always in the shit they were in. They were doing pretty well when the joined the Eurozone. And it made sense for Greece to join, since they were by far the closest Eastern European nation (if you could call it that) in terms of relations with the EU.