Do you feel like Rhodesia could have peacefully transitioned into a non-apartheid state reasonably soon without going to shit like it has under Mugabe?

It definitely had the potential. It was just the fact that there was an insurgency going on before Rhodesia even declared independence, so what the fuck could they do?

Do you feel that Zimbabwe's failures can be attributed to Mugabe's regime specifically or is there more at play?

Definitely Mugabe's regime. They inherited what was probably the 2nd most viable country in the continent (after South Africa), and they immediately began to plunder it of all its wealth from the moment Mugabe and his terrorist friends took power.

still at it because you got banned?

I got banned?

I feel like I have a decent understanding of the way race played into official policy in Rhodesia. While discriminatory, some policies seemed like they were intended more to keep the uneducated out of power, rather than overtly suppress the natives. It just so happened that all of the uneducated people were natives.

Would you say that this is true of white Rhodesians culturally, in your experience? Or is there genuine racism? Overt or otherwise?

It was more covert racism. They made all of those laws which sound equal on paper, knowing that the laws would affect the native Africans extremely disproportionately. And also, Africans weren't allowed to vote in elections until very late in the war. So the Government was definitely Apartheid. Though it was less obvious of an Apartheid system than South Africa's at first glance.

Hell, Ian Smith (the PM of Rhodesia, to those who don't know him) even said himself that he didn't believe that Africans should rule the country.

But overall, I'd say that Rhodesian Apartheid wasn't as brutal as South African Apartheid. But that was mainly because the whites in Rhodesia had to compromise somewhat given that they were 5% of the population. While South Africa's white population made up 25%, so they could do whatever the fuck they pleased.

...and the country my family hailed from....

RHODESIA!!

It's unfortunately a county which has been largely forgotten and whose legacy has been overshadowed by South Africa's. I'll just give a brief rundown of its history.

So from the 1880's (assumption) until 1965, there was this British colony named "Southern Rhodesia", named after Cecil Rhodes himself(one of the biggest British Imperialists during the 2nd wave of Imperialism). But during the time between the end of wwII and 1965, most of the British colonies in Africa became independent one by one with Black governments taking power and instability following. Southern Rhodesia, being headed by Whites and having a viable enough percentage of the population (around 5-10%) to rule the country by themselves, unilaterally declared independent in 1965. This independence was completely unrecognized by the international community, and Southern Rhodesia (now named Rhodesia) was immediately slapped with massive sanctions which isolated it from the rest of the world. And I'll just say that the remaining 90% of the population (who were mostly from the Shona and Matabele ethnic groups) weren't very happy about suddenly being a part of an Apartheid state, and declared war.

Now we get to the Rhodesian Bush War, which was a brutal, 15-year long Guerilla War between the African insurgents (mostly belonging to the Chinese-backed ZANLA (what later became ZAPU, which is the ruling party today), and the Soviet Union-backed ZIPRA). The Rhodesian Army was one of the best counter-insurgency forces in the world (for real), but they didn't have much in the way of resupply. And they were against the two big rebel groups, ZANLA and ZIPRA, with a little bit of help from FRELIMO (a Mozambican organization). For the first few years of this war, the Rhodesian Army was holding its own just fine due to consistent aid from South Africa and Portugal (who were busy quelling independence movements in Angola and Mozambique). They managed to hold the country together for the most part despite the increasing amounts of terrorists pouring into the country. But then in 1975 (about 11 years into the war), Portugal had a revolution, their dictatorial Government collapsed, and the replacement one gave immediate independence to their African colonies despite the fact that they had practically won their wars militarily, and then you have Rhodesia left on their own pretty much. After 1975, it was just a matter of time before the Government collapsed, so most of my family had to leave the country then.

And then in 1980, the Government finally surrendered to the terrorists after some negotiations, Rhodesia became Zimbabwe and Mugabe has been running the show since (and he has destroyed the country completely of course). And what sucks about it most is that Rhodesia was one of the most industrialized and prosperous countries in Africa, and maintained consistent economic growth despite the war going on..

Oh yeah, and the US was one of the countries who helped to destroy Rhodesia, so fuck the USA!!!



I made this thread since practically nobody has any clue what Rhodesia even was, let alone know anything about it, and partially because Door wanted me to. >__>

So since I had relatives of various closeness who were in the Government, and others who served in the Rhodesian Army (and even some who fled the country to dodge the draft), I imagine that a few of you would be interested in knowing about that.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 21, 2015, 11:53:22 PM

Quote from: Decimator Omega on April 21, 2015, 11:53:05 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 21, 2015, 11:52:39 PM

Quote from: Decimator Omega on April 21, 2015, 09:23:44 PM

If Cheat gets the ball rolling with implementing donations and getting a supporter nameplate, that's a start.

I'm glad my thread inspired you to make this thread.

>implying that people actually give a shit about nameplates

*sigh*

>other than Deci

*sigh*

Don't sigh when you know it's true.

If Cheat gets the ball rolling with implementing donations and getting a supporter nameplate, that's a start.

I'm glad my thread inspired you to make this thread.

>implying that people actually give a shit about nameplates

I'm not even Heroic yet and I am SO MAD RIGHT NOW CHEAT THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT

OMG I HATE CHEAT OMGOMGOMG

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 21, 2015, 11:27:37 PM

Quote from: Iberian Husky on April 21, 2015, 11:20:37 PM

It all depends on the who the dictator is really... If it's someone like Tito, then sure, I could deal with an authoritarian government. If it's someone like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Mugabe, or Qaddafi, then fuck no.

Ah....

Some of my family lives under Mugabe right now. And he's the reason I'm not living in Africa. <___<

You've got Rhodesian family? Any interesting stories? Rhodesian/Zimbabwean history is fascinating to me.

Yeah, my family's from Rhodesia. And I had several relatives who were in the Rhodesian Government, including Ian Smith himself. So, obviously we all had to leave once it became clear that the Government would lose the war as the terrorists committed a lot of reprisals. We kind of split all over the world. Most of us went to Europe or South Africa, but my mom's immediate family could only get into the US (Canada would have let them in, but they didn't want cold weather), so now I'm kind of stuck here for the time being separated from the rest of my family.

And I have several interesting stories about it, yes.

It all depends on the who the dictator is really... If it's someone like Tito, then sure, I could deal with an authoritarian government. If it's someone like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Mugabe, or Qaddafi, then fuck no.

Ah....

Some of my family lives under Mugabe right now. And he's the reason I'm not living in Africa. <___<

>Florida

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 21, 2015, 10:42:46 PM

So this show is a continuation of The Clone Wars or what?

It's Star Wars.  Clone Wars characters do return,  but it's all Star Wars. Not really a continuation, just telling of a story in the canon universe.

YouTube

I'm talking about the series.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 21, 2015, 09:38:58 PM

Quote from: BC on April 21, 2015, 09:37:36 PM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 21, 2015, 09:22:44 PM

>drives Mercedes-Benz

What model :p

Eh, just an M-series. >___>

SUV's right? I'm not to keen on Merc models.

What year?

2000

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 21, 2015, 09:11:03 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on April 21, 2015, 09:09:38 PM

Authoritarianism is relative. All coercion is abuse, whether you're using it to get public schools built or to silence dissidents. This notion that a state can be considered immoral once it crosses some arbitrary line is ridiculous. Are some states more inhumane than others? Absolutely. But the very existence of any state is based on the application (or threat thereof) of force by one group to control another. This is inherently immoral.

The United States government is no more legitimate than that of the former Confederacy, or Sweden, or the English Crown, or the Soviet Union, Franco's Spain, modern Spain, Nazi Germany, or modern Germany. All of these institutions rule by threat of force. There is no justification.

There is no such thing as a legitimate state, and there never can be. Can states be an evil means to a positive end? Most here think so, but I would argue that not only do the ends fail to justify the means, the means themselves are a part of the ends. The nation-state is definitely not the most moral structure of society, and it isn't even close to the most effective or efficient.

So I see you're firmly a member of Rousseau's school of thought then. >__>

I have no idea who that is

edit: oh, social contract guy

And Rousseau is a fucking retard.

Fuck no.

How the fuck are we gonna attract new members? The site's stagnating as fuck. And that's the most positive way you can look at it.