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42991
« on: February 03, 2015, 12:12:07 PM »
I'm gonna step out for awhile. I've been sitting here for five hours.
I'll have your response, Meta. Hopefully you won't lose interest by then.
42992
« on: February 03, 2015, 12:10:19 PM »
We were talking hypotheticals, as in post-apocalyptic or a starting country. And, again, that still doesn't make it necessity. Just because you would like to have kids doesn't make it okay. The fact that humanity is about to go extinct doesn't change that. That sounds like an argument from nature, again. We need to survive, for some arbitrary, ungiven reason. I just don't see any reason why, unless you're religious.
42993
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:55:40 AM »
Then read it again, because I'm speaking out of selflessness, actually. I wouldn't want people burdened by my existence. And that's what existence IS--a burden. We can make it better, but it's always going to be a burden.
42994
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:45:24 AM »
You might think it's right to feed your kid a hundred pounds of junk food, just because he wants it. But you'd be wrong, quite obviously.
42995
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:43:09 AM »
Aight, gimme a minute, Meta. You don't think that the last person, as they get caught in a trap that they could've been freed from, a disease they could've been cured from, etc, as they suffered from a death they didn't have to die from...they didn't deserve to have that aid from others? I wouldn't want to be held responsible for someone's life (or death, for that matter). If I had to save someone's life, and I failed, which is always a distinct possibility, now I'm in utter despair. In such an instance as that, if I were the one dying, I'd hate to have someone risk their own lives just to save mine. I'd HATE it. Of course, if anyone did, I would be eternally grateful--but what I'm saying is, I don't like your assertion that there HAS to be people around, just because you can't do everything yourself. If I'm the last person on Earth, my death will be absolutely monumental--in a good way. There's no more people to take care of. There's no more suffering. That can ONLY BE a good thing. Is it really moral to forbid a a couple- a potential mother- from having a child that they so dearly want just because of your twisted idea of what morality is? That they should just grow old and without their kids to one day take care of them when they're too old to take care of themselves? That they'll never be able to see their beloved kids have grandchildren? Oh, God... Yes, it's immoral. Having kids is immoral. There's no getting around it. Sorry, potential mother--the universe doesn't revolve around you. Morality isn't based on what people want. It's based on what's RIGHT.
42996
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:24:01 AM »
Isn't it "immoral" to condemn someone to have people live until they die out, one by one when they had the ability to keep life going? Isn't it "immoral" for that last person to be left to die alone when the first had everyone surrounding them in their final moments? No. Even if it was, what's your solution? Have more people, so they can suffer, too? What's the point? It's selfish.
42997
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:20:03 AM »
Ah yes, I forgot. You rather that they just live the rest of their lives more and more lonely as each person dies off. That's... the "moral" thing to do, yes. Your loneliness is not a justification to impose fifty to eighty years of life on another person.
42998
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:18:03 AM »
To rebuild, obviously. For what? There can be a need sometimes, yes. Especially if it's something like...say, a group of people escaping an oppressive government or a group that was say...exiled to an island or something with no hopes or returning. If they're building a tribe, town or country, isn't having a population important? ...No? They would be, in a phrase, just more mouths to feed.
42999
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:14:33 AM »
She figures you'd have some misgivings about that concept. Do you?
I do actually. I've been thinking about a response to anti-natalism for the past few hours, and now that I'm at my laptop I'll post it in just a second.
Fun.
43000
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:12:21 AM »
And I made the point that pressing the button would, in my eyes, be beneficial to mankind. To cease to be. She figures you'd have some misgivings about that concept. Do you? You're talking about either Isara or Korra here, right?
Prime Meridia. I know her by Aria, sorry. I forget sometimes that she's still kinda new here.
43001
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:11:38 AM »
Alright fine.
Apocalyptic senario.
A small starting country.
Take your pick. Why would you need to have kids in an apocalyptic scenario? Do you think countries need to be started? There's no life on Mars--no one weeps over the fact that there's no life on Mars. Why does there need to be life here? Do you think the universe gives a fuck?
43002
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:08:40 AM »
So we were just talking about it the other day, and there came a point of contention where she thought that, because I think "morality" is objective, like you, that must mean I think that all decisions that are made must be either, you know, neutral, or beneficial to society/mankind in some way. That's moral behavior. Do good. Help your fellow man. And I made the point that pressing the button would, in my eyes, be beneficial to mankind. To cease to be. She figures you'd have some misgivings about that concept. Do you?
43003
« on: February 03, 2015, 11:01:16 AM »
I'd much rather you give an example based on reality.
43004
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:59:18 AM »
Say in the perfect society that there are no kids who stay in orphanages for very long, and the orphanages are relatively empty because they get picked up by a family so quickly.
By all means, have 1-3 kids. But you don't believe that perfection exists.
43005
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:57:46 AM »
Well that's a shame.
not the killing yourself bit It was the only bit there, really...
43006
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:55:46 AM »
There's a reason I ask pro-natalists (awful term) for a GOOD REASON to have kids. It's not a rhetorical question--I actually want an answer. I've never received a good one. Even Nuka concedes that there is no good reason to have kids.
Only for as long as the need for adoption exists.
So, okay, what's a good reason to HAVE kids, then, if adoption is out of the equation? A good reason, not based on ego desire.
43007
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:54:15 AM »
Not to mention, I can't persuade people not to have kids if I'm fucking dead. Ah yes, the gallant Knight of Grey is here to spread the word of why everything sucks.
That really is why I don't kill myself, though. Apart from the obvious. Frankly, if I wanted to kill myself, I'd have done it already--but I have things to do. Purposes to fulfill. I was GIVEN them, sure--without my permission--but I can't do anything about it now. If I killed myself, I see that as... one less person who knows what he's talking about. I won't say I'm intelligent, or right, but I know for SURE what I'm talking about. And I'm gonna spread it around.
43008
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:51:20 AM »
Awkward. I can see where you're coming from, but I think the thought experiment would be much more relevant if--instead of the deletion of life--its the deletion of the capacity to actualise potential persons; mass sterilisation.
I like that better, too, honestly.
43009
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:50:34 AM »
Then I'm sure he'd be all for that.
I don't think so since that would be its own form of imposition. It'd depend on how he perceived the balance of utility in that hypothetical.
Here's the thing. Impositions aren't inherently bad, either. I think you'd agree with that. There's a reason I ask pro-natalists (awful term) for a GOOD REASON to have kids. It's not a rhetorical question--I actually want an answer. I've never received a good one. Even Nuka concedes that there is no good reason to have kids. But impositions are okay as long as you are dead-certain that the result will benefit mankind. ...Which brings me to another discussion that Aria suggested that I have with you the other day!
43010
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:47:24 AM »
...I think I'll have to think about this for a while before I reply again. That's what you should do, always.
43011
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:45:54 AM »
Unless there was a painless way to eradicate all life.
Then I'm sure he'd be all for that. There's a famous thought experiment in anti-natalist circles referred to as "the red button", and I'm sure you know what it entails. The instantaneous deletion of all life. If I had the button, I'd press it, no questions asked. Then I'm sure he'd be all for that. I don't think so since that would be its own form of imposition. It'd depend on how he perceived the balance of utility in that hypothetical.
Awkward.
43012
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:44:29 AM »
There's no such thing as perfection, even if it is such in your subjective view. I just defined it for you. Nonexistence. It's a utopia. Before you were born, there was no war, no fighting, no anger, no disagreement. No nothing. To me, that is perfection. Killing myself doesn't evoke nonexistence for all life. It doesn't solve anything, and it makes it WORSE for people who have attachments to me. Explain to me why that maters, then. Especially if it goes against all your desires for nonexistence.[/quote]Why what matters? My friend's and family's earthly attachments to me? Because I don't want them to suffer emotionally, quite obviously. Not to mention, I can't persuade people not to have kids if I'm fucking dead.
43013
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:40:38 AM »
One proposition of anti-natalism, as least as far as I can tell, is that a potential person should hold more precedence than an actual person. That sounds rather preposterous to me. I've never said anything remotely similar to that.
43014
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:39:31 AM »
Not when there's adoption, sure. And I have no qualms with adoption whatsoever.
43015
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:39:02 AM »
Yes.
43016
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:36:56 AM »
Just about as much as nonexistence, wouldn't you say? No, because nonexistence is perfection. There is nothing to accomplish. Killing myself doesn't evoke nonexistence for all life. It doesn't solve anything, and it makes it WORSE for people who have attachments to me.
43017
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:34:06 AM »
But it's pretty stupid if you think that's the only reason people have kids. I don't think that. What I do think, however, is that there is no good reason to have kids.
43018
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:32:50 AM »
But wishing for no existence at all is obviously stupid and futile. Might as well just off yourself if that's what you want, rather than being an insufferable edgelord. Yeah, wow, that would accomplish a lot. The id is your natural impulses, no? Procreation is one of those. If we're going off of Freud's model (I wasn't, initially), the ego is what seeks to sate the id.
43019
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:28:59 AM »
That's not ego. It's EXACTLY ego. "I want to be a father. I want to extend my bloodline." Ego. It'd be id, actually. No, uh, yeah, it's ego. I know what I'm talking about. Been at this for two years. I'm not talking about Freud's model here.
43020
« on: February 03, 2015, 10:26:38 AM »
Good luck with that. Tell me how far you manage to get with it. As mentioned in the OP, I'm able to get most people to concede many core tenets of anti-natalism. The hump that most people can't get over is their own ego. They WANT the human race to continue for... some stupid, petty, worthless reason. Based on their ego.
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