I absolutely despise humility and modesty

The two examples I'm going to use will be religious, merely because religion can perpetuate this kind of attitude; this isn't a criticism directly or a discussion of religion itself.

I remember watching an interview with Richard Dawkins and an incredibly stupid host. The host didn't seem to understand what Dawkins was saying, and consistently referred to himself as "simple". He was a "simple man", almost as if he were trying to imply he lacked the capability to understand what Dawkins was saying. Secondly, I remember an instance where a local pastor came into our philosophy lesson to be questioned and he, fairly consistently, tried to profess that he didn't have the answers to a lot of questions.

Now, by no means am I advocating hubris or conceit. However, modesty and humility in this manner - the debasement of one's self to nothing more than a lost puppy searching in the light of something greater, be that God or not - I find really quite irritating and, seriously, fucΒ­king repulsive.

It's as if people think their self-professed imperfection, ignorance or simplicity somehow excludes them from the intellectual rigors everybody should face. Trying to brush off your own stupidity and failure to reason as part of your nature just doesn't bloody cut it. Even people in positions of power - be it political or social - have become convinced that this sort of humility is a virtue.

I have no problem with the, if you like, humility of science: "Well, we don't know, but we're working on it". But I'd struggle to call that genuine humility. If anything, it's sort of egotistical in a subtle way: "I don't know, but I'm confident I'm clever enough to find out for the sake of finding out". Science knows it's superior.

But these retards who think their humility is an excuse to hang on to their idiocy? I hate them. It's an infection on our culture, and the weak use it to avoid being crushed by the mighty. Anybody else in agreement? I suppose it comes from a deep-seated need for conflict on my part, but nonetheless it shouldn't be socially acceptable to prostrate yourself or others in this way.

TL;DR - People who are humble can have a tendency to think their self-professed simplicity excludes them from scrutiny and allows them to be stupid.

So you encourage people to brag?

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You're confusing humility and modesty with being an ignorant retard.

No, I'm saying one has a propensity to lead to the other.

There's a difference between saying "Well, I don't know" - which is perfectly reasonable and not at all modest - and constantly professing your imperfection.

So you encourage people to brag?

Did you even read the OP?

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The definition of modesty:"the quality or state of being unassuming or moderate in the estimation of one's abilities."

Well, I'm glad to hear you're using the same definition as me.

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So you encourage people to brag?

Now, by no means am I advocating hubris or conceit.

So you're saying that "I don't know" does not mean you acknowledge a limit to your own abilities? I think you need a nap, kiddo

Well I didn't say that, but there's a difference between being moderate or unassuming and professing a sort of momentary ignorance. If you were to ask me whether the MAOA gene or neurological dysfunction in the prefrontal cortex was a bigger cause for antisocial behaviour, I'd simply have to tell you I don't know the answer to that.

You can call that modest if it helps you sleep at night, but it's fundamentally different and less meaningful to real modesty. Acknowledging a specific, and perhaps, temporary gap in my judgement isn't even barely comparable to a general feeling of insignificance, simplicity, ignorance or whatever else you want to associate with humility.

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So you encourage people to brag?

Now, by no means am I advocating hubris or conceit.

Your profile pic is perfect for this post

I'd argue that people like Richard Dawkins propagate the idea that people who don't have the same education or knowledge that they do are inferior, so I can't say I do not feel some sympathy for people who feel brow beaten by people because they are limited in their knowledge. They probably act that way because people like Dawkins make them afraid to challenge their opinions. I'm not saying it's right, but that's why the term "stupid question" exists.

And using the term "I don't know" is, by definition,exercising humility.

I'd say saying "I don't know" is just exercising honesty when faced with epistemic uncertainty.

So you encourage people to brag?

Now, by no means am I advocating hubris or conceit.

Your profile pic is perfect for this post

Why thank you.

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And using the term "I don't know" is, by definition,exercising humility.

I've got to be honest: I don't care.

You can call it humility if you want, but it's really not something I'm bothered with. It's just the label for the phenomenon. I'm talking about something much more socially influential and meaningful than merely saying "I don't know" when asked a question. It really is inconsequential; is a man saying "I don't know" to the question of "Are there aliens on Europa?" being humble? You could say so, but you'd be completely missing the point I'm making because you're too stuck on the lexical discrepancies.

I'd argue that people like Richard Dawkins propagate the idea that people who don't have the same education or knowledge that they do are inferior, so I can't say I do not feel some sympathy for people who feel brow beaten by people because they are limited in their knowledge. They probably act that way because people like Dawkins make them afraid to challenge their opinions. I'm not saying it's right, but that's why the term "stupid question" exists.

And using the term "I don't know" is, by definition,exercising humility.

I'd say saying "I don't know" is just exercising honesty when faced with epistemic uncertainty.

Saying "I don't know" is stating I am limited in my knowledge and understanding of this subject.

By definition, it is exercising humility.

I think op is referring to a categorically different kind of "humility".

Where you can call saying "I don't know" when you actually don't know something humility it is also just being honest. Whereas the type of "humility" op is referring too can almost be taken to mean "I don't know and I don't care to know" and playing it off as being humble, it's almost disingenuous in a way.

Perhaps he could have worded it better to be more clear.

Perhaps he could have worded it better to be more clear.

I did quite clearly say:

However, modesty and humility in this manner - the debasement of one's self to nothing more than a lost puppy searching in the light of something greater, be that God or not - I find really quite irritating and, seriously, fucΒ­king repulsive.

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I'm a pretty modest person, but that's probably just because I don't have any confidence. If I don't restrain myself, which I've trained myself to do unconsciously, then I can get pretty cocky about my abilities. The unfortunate thing is that having confidence really gets you places in life, you don't even have to be intelligent.

It depends on the extent of your "modesty".

There's self-depreciation (which I'm criticising) and then there's a sense of reservation. Mixing the latter with a bit of confidence can actually be good.

Makes you seem genuine.

That's not humility, it's purposely going out of your way to be ignorant.

And I actually addressed the main topic, Meta.

No, you still seem to be misunderstanding me. I don't know if it's my fault.

There's a difference between pathological modesty - which I'm criticising - and reserved modesty. The latter is seen usually in scientists as a sense of intellectual honesty about one's abilities, but I've said I struggle to call that humility in any socially meaningful sense.

The pathological modesty I referred to certainly isn't as revered or virtuous as it once was considered to be, but that's not to say it isn't a problem. I'm not saying these people aren't going out of their way to be ignorant - they indeed are, whether they realise it - the point is that subcultures which focus on such modesty can produce such ignorance without any malicious intent from the ignorant themselves.

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that's basically completely true.

That's why I'm posting it.

Perhaps he could have worded it better to be more clear.

I did quite clearly say:

However, modesty and humility in this manner - the debasement of one's self to nothing more than a lost puppy searching in the light of something greater, be that God or not - I find really quite irritating and, seriously, fucΒ­king repulsive.

It seemed straight forward too me but sometimes people see a certain word and just kind of "boop"(that's a turning off sound).

Just that it's those who are ignorant and use this kind of behaviour in an excuse are the ones who irritate me.