Quote from: BritishLemön on November 28, 2014, 10:30:15 PM

Quote from: CyberGama on November 28, 2014, 10:27:03 PM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 28, 2014, 10:24:28 PM

Quote from: The First Noelle on November 28, 2014, 04:14:36 PM

Quote from: Mr. Admirals on November 28, 2014, 02:15:36 PM

Quote from: The First Noelle on November 28, 2014, 10:32:48 AM

Who the hell is Lasky?

Chief's dudebro.

You meet him in Infinity. He's a main character in Halo 4. He's also the main character of Forward Unto Dawn.

Were people actually supposed to remember any of the boring characters from Halo 4?

As opposed to the badly done characters in the original trilogy?

I can understand this, but the Arbiter would like to have a word with you.

Aside from a small amount of characters like Thel, everyone else is badly done. Even Chief is badly done.

In the five seconds we saw of him in a commercial, Thom was a more interesting character than anybody in either trilogy. Or all of Halo, for that matter.

Nah

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 10:49:56 PM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 28, 2014, 10:30:15 PM

Quote from: CyberGama on November 28, 2014, 10:27:03 PM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 28, 2014, 10:24:28 PM

Quote from: The First Noelle on November 28, 2014, 04:14:36 PM

Quote from: Mr. Admirals on November 28, 2014, 02:15:36 PM

Quote from: The First Noelle on November 28, 2014, 10:32:48 AM

Who the hell is Lasky?

Chief's dudebro.

You meet him in Infinity. He's a main character in Halo 4. He's also the main character of Forward Unto Dawn.

Were people actually supposed to remember any of the boring characters from Halo 4?

As opposed to the badly done characters in the original trilogy?

I can understand this, but the Arbiter would like to have a word with you.

Aside from a small amount of characters like Thel, everyone else is badly done. Even Chief is badly done.

In the five seconds we saw of him in a commercial, Thom was a more interesting character than anybody in either trilogy. Or all of Halo, for that matter.

Nah

...Yeah?

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 10:54:54 PM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 28, 2014, 10:51:38 PM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 10:49:56 PM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 28, 2014, 10:30:15 PM

Quote from: CyberGama on November 28, 2014, 10:27:03 PM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 28, 2014, 10:24:28 PM

Quote from: The First Noelle on November 28, 2014, 04:14:36 PM

Quote from: Mr. Admirals on November 28, 2014, 02:15:36 PM

Quote from: The First Noelle on November 28, 2014, 10:32:48 AM

Who the hell is Lasky?

Chief's dudebro.

You meet him in Infinity. He's a main character in Halo 4. He's also the main character of Forward Unto Dawn.

Were people actually supposed to remember any of the boring characters from Halo 4?

As opposed to the badly done characters in the original trilogy?

I can understand this, but the Arbiter would like to have a word with you.

Aside from a small amount of characters like Thel, everyone else is badly done. Even Chief is badly done.

In the five seconds we saw of him in a commercial, Thom was a more interesting character than anybody in either trilogy. Or all of Halo, for that matter.

Nah

...Yeah?

Grabbing a bomb and throwing it into a hanger is more interesting than Cortana suffering through AI-dementia while struggling to keep the Chief safe?

Grabbing a bomb from one of his incompetent allies, flying it up to an alien ship using a jump pack that was never meant to be used like that, fighting through god-knows-how-many aliens to get to the hanger, and tossing a nuke into the lot of them without the slightest hesitation before turning around and walking away as though the fact that a nuclear weapon was about to vaporize him was too trivial to warrant his attention. Thom don't give a fuck.

That beats the hell out of Cortana having AI PMS while John yells at her to stay focused.

What Thom did is probably the most generic thing I've ever heard.

That was also more impactful and interesting than the majority of the series.

Meanwhile, you're over here, trivializing an amazing character arc that has real emotion poured into it.

Yeah, see, here's the thing. You're the one who thinks it's amazing and emotional. I thought it took stones to kill Cortana off, but beyond that the whole scene was handled so poorly I couldn't feel much of anything.

And the thing is, the main reason 343 did that was to show their handling of Halo will be different from Bungie's. Changing the status quo of the story to coincide with the change in management, if you will.

I'll take a few seconds of Thom doing something badass and establishing what kind of man he was than Cortana throwing a fit and dying just so 343 can show they're not fucking around. I get that you prefer the story itself establishing personality, but I prefer characters that show rather than tell.

Not just that, but we don't just have to have Cortana. Practically the majority of all the characters from the games are better than Thom.

Better established, maybe, but they're still dull. The only characterization Thom has is that he was an unstoppable behemoth, and therefore more interesting by default. He's like Halo's Batman, if Batman were a martyr.

Also, I like the idea of Noble Six being a legacy character. I'd love it if 343 introduced a new Noble Team with interchanging members every time one of them dies.

Because Thom has literally no development, and only serves one purpose in the Halo franchise, and that is to die, so you get to play as Noble 6.

Well, he still went out in a blaze of glory, instead of a sputtering mess of a scene with cliche dialogue and little given explanation as to how John was even still alive to talk to her.

So would I be correct in assuming you like Michael Bay movies because "BOOM EXPLOSION"?
Thom was undeveloped, and made absolutely no impact.

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 11:26:27 PM

So would I be correct in assuming you like Michael Bay movies because "BOOM EXPLOSION"?
Thom was undeveloped, and made absolutely no impact.

I can appreciate well developed characters when they're done well.

Those last four words are key.

On the other hand, I can appreciate undeveloped characters when they do something legitimately entertaining.

Like Thom did.

If you didn't know, the majority of the characters in the series have all done things more impactful to the story and universe than that.

More impactful to the viewer, not to the plot.

And?

And the fact that you expect me to think the same is baffling.

Listen, I totally get if you didn't feel anything. I was absolutely unphased by it. No reaction out of me at all. But that doesn't deny the fact it was well done.

If a scene that was supposed to get a reaction from the audience fails to do that, then it was not well done. It was a good idea, no doubt about that, but it was not done well.

Finishing a plot-point that was planted in Halo's lore all the way back in October 30th, 2001 is handling the story differently? 

Dude, Rampancy's been in Halo's lore since it was first available to the public.

You missed the point.

Why didn't 343 have John get Cortana back to Halsey, have her say some technobabble, and have John toady about getting stuff for her to fix his AI? Why not have Cortana reach metastability through her own willpower? Why have Halo's most important and plot-critical character, arguably Halo's real protagonist, die off in such an undignified way, and so soon into 343's venture into the Haloverse?

To show their fans that they're not pulling their punches, that why. Sure, they're trying to build drama so John will have emotional baggage in the next game, but the whole thing feels like they just threw away their most plot-critical character just to establish that the series will be darker this time around. Did they just run out of ideas as to what they could do with Cortana?

First off, that sounds rather sexist.

You seem to be implying that a character struggling through emotions and prevailing is somehow a negative thing.

It isn't, when it's done well. It just wasn't done well.

Secondly, Thom destroyed a single CCS-Class Battlecruiser (the resulting explosion of which most likely inflicted numerous friendly casualties given the proximity of UNSC forces to the Covenant ship when it detonated.

Yes, but he did so in an entertaining way. I found the commercial entertaining. I did not find Cortana's subplot entertaining.

Meanwhile, Cortana on the other hand, in the deep throws of rampancy, on the verge of absolute destruction, pulls herself together, to not only save Chief, but all of humanity from the Didact.

Yeah, but in practice she pulled some shit at the last second and deus-ex-machina'd the story to a close. I know it sounds awesome on paper, but it wasn't so awesome on my TV screen. Or, at least, not as awesome as Thom's death.

A character without flaws is better than a character who must triumph over his/her flaws.

To be fair, he died before we could find out if he had any flaws. That's why he's so interesting to me - he showed up from nowhere, did something cool, and that's all we know about him.

I think the need to point out the interchanging members thing is a bit redundant since that happens with every military unit and has happened with SPARTAN teams before.

Sam died, and Kurt replaced him. So on, and so forth.

I know, but I think 343 could get a lot of mileage from having a new Noble show up and see how their roster changes. It'd build suspense, like, we'd know somebody is going to die, but not who. And who would replace them? There could be a supporting cast of Spartans, any of whom is a viable replacement member. That'd be an awesome story.

Well, she literally says Chief is no longer on the ship, and given the Didact used the Approach's teleportation grid a minute earlier, I think it's safe to say Cortana teleported, a concept which is well established in the lore.

The blue box around them, on the other hand, is never even commented on. We know Cortana is shielding him from the blast using the ship's hard-light projector, but for the casual observer, this is never brought up. They just showed up in a shimmering blue Purgatory for no evident reason.

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:40:38 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 12:25:43 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:17:17 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 11:26:27 PM

So would I be correct in assuming you like Michael Bay movies because "BOOM EXPLOSION"?
Thom was undeveloped, and made absolutely no impact.

I can appreciate well developed characters when they're done well.

Those last four words are key.

On the other hand, I can appreciate undeveloped characters when they do something legitimately entertaining.

Like Thom did.

Entertaining and pretty badass? Sure.
Impactful actions and more developed and interesting than anyone else in the Haloverse? Most definitely not.

Never said he was more developed. Just more interesting.

Like, how? He's nobody that's done nothing.

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 02:40:23 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 01:14:20 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:40:38 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 12:25:43 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:17:17 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 11:26:27 PM

So would I be correct in assuming you like Michael Bay movies because "BOOM EXPLOSION"?
Thom was undeveloped, and made absolutely no impact.

I can appreciate well developed characters when they're done well.

Those last four words are key.

On the other hand, I can appreciate undeveloped characters when they do something legitimately entertaining.

Like Thom did.

Entertaining and pretty badass? Sure.
Impactful actions and more developed and interesting than anyone else in the Haloverse? Most definitely not.

Never said he was more developed. Just more interesting.

Like, how? He's nobody that's done nothing.

 single-handed

Sure. Totally didn't have people on the ground that made it possible for him to even get close to the ship.

ITT: you guys should just fuck already.

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 03:34:03 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 02:47:08 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 02:40:23 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 01:14:20 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:40:38 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 12:25:43 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:17:17 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 11:26:27 PM

So would I be correct in assuming you like Michael Bay movies because "BOOM EXPLOSION"?
Thom was undeveloped, and made absolutely no impact.

I can appreciate well developed characters when they're done well.

Those last four words are key.

On the other hand, I can appreciate undeveloped characters when they do something legitimately entertaining.

Like Thom did.

Entertaining and pretty badass? Sure.
Impactful actions and more developed and interesting than anyone else in the Haloverse? Most definitely not.

Never said he was more developed. Just more interesting.

Like, how? He's nobody that's done nothing.

 single-handed

Sure. Totally didn't have people on the ground that made it possible for him to even get close to the ship.

It's not like Kat's impotent yet finely-shaped ass was helping him any. He had to clean up the rest of his team's mess while they stood by wishing they could be half as amazing as him.

Apparently you have low standards for what constitutes as interesting.

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 03:50:09 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 03:43:36 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 03:34:03 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 02:47:08 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 02:40:23 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 01:14:20 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:40:38 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 29, 2014, 12:25:43 AM

Quote from: BritishLemön on November 29, 2014, 12:17:17 AM

Quote from: Lord Keksworth on November 28, 2014, 11:26:27 PM

So would I be correct in assuming you like Michael Bay movies because "BOOM EXPLOSION"?
Thom was undeveloped, and made absolutely no impact.

I can appreciate well developed characters when they're done well.

Those last four words are key.

On the other hand, I can appreciate undeveloped characters when they do something legitimately entertaining.

Like Thom did.

Entertaining and pretty badass? Sure.
Impactful actions and more developed and interesting than anyone else in the Haloverse? Most definitely not.

Never said he was more developed. Just more interesting.

Like, how? He's nobody that's done nothing.

 single-handed

Sure. Totally didn't have people on the ground that made it possible for him to even get close to the ship.

It's not like Kat's impotent yet finely-shaped ass was helping him any. He had to clean up the rest of his team's mess while they stood by wishing they could be half as amazing as him.

Apparently you have low standards for what constitutes as interesting.

A supersoldier hand-delivering a nuclear weapon to an alien ship isn't interesting?

An undeveloped character with no impact on anything from a trailer created entirely for hype and le c00l factor isn't interesting.

What Thom did is negligible to the plot. Sure, you may not find Siege of Charum Hakkor or Operation: BLIND FAITH particularly interesting, but the characters who defined those events have had an enormous impact on the story and plot, shaping the future of what is to come.

And yet I said nothing about the plot. What I did say is that what Thom did was more impactful to the viewer. Deciding to nuke himself with absolutely no hesitation to destroy a ship he couldn't otherwise destroy had more of an impact on me than Cortana's rampancy.

Who said I do? If I honestly was expecting you to think the same thing as me, I'd be throwing a tantrum. All we're having is a debate. A chance to flex our argumentative muscles and try and make our points of views more logical and understandable to the other.

I just can't see any reason for you to decide to argue a subject based entirely on subjective opinion. All I said was that I found Thom to be an interesting character, so when I got 'BUT WASN'T CORTANA MORE INTERESTING IN HALO 4?' as a response, I was rather taken aback.

Because those methods of saving her are cheap and hollow.

True, but it'd preserve a character they could still wring more interesting plots out of. I'd prefer that over killing her just to build a bit of emotional value.

Also, undignified? Do you even know what dignity means? She seemed very in control of her own actions at her demise, and very serious.

That was mostly just for emphasis.

"Most plot-critical character".

I'd equate that to Mendicant Bias actually for very obvious reasons.

More critical to the plot =/= more critical to the story. The latter is more important to the lore as a whole; the former is more important to the immediate events.

That is, the plot is the game in question, the story is the franchise as a whole.

I don't think they threw her character away at all. All logical paths pointed to her demise. No attempts made by the UNSC to solve the rampancy issue have been effective. She is suffering extreme trauma from being tortured by the Gravemind, and the weight of the Forerunner knowledge she's consumed is crushing her.

And weren't you saying a character who triumphs over their problems is interesting?

In fact, her demise opens up many possibilities. Sure, you are correct that Chief will be emotionally affected by Cortana's death, but it's more than that. Chief's character could not adequately develop with Cortana in the picture. We all know how close they are to each other, and as a result, Cortana often acted as Chief's mouthpiece, answering for Chief instead.

Hence why she was arguably Halo's real protagonist, not John. The series was always more about Cortana's development, while John carries her from place to place, like a reverse satellite character. It's a literary technique - the main character is deliberately left less interesting as the other characters so their personality quirks shine all the brighter.

I understand that killing her allows John to develop more, I just don't agree with it. There was a lot of potential for Cortana. How would she have reacted to the Librarian? To Mendicant Bias? How about the John's 'evolution' midway through Halo 4? She never commented on that, IIRC. We could have seen how she and Halsey would react to one another now after Cortana's image of her was shattered in 'Human Weakness'.

Killing her threw all of those potential stories straight out the window. It wasn't like Johnson's death - he was basically just Chief's sidekick, so there's not really a lot of stories you could get out of him by Halo 3 - but Cortana still had a lot of possibilities.

If she were to still live, it would result in stagnation for Chief's development as a character. Now he must speak for himself, forge his own path, whereas before, Cortana was the one guiding him.

They could have done that without killing her off, you know. Like handing her over to Halsey to see what she can do, while John goes off and does something else for a while. It'd give him some time fighting without his closest ally, and the conflict between Cortana and Halsey could reap some drama as well.

Hey, it just seemed off to me about you being a Thom fanboy and referring him to being awesome because he did something 'manly'.

I never described it as manly, though. And it's mostly how he had the stones to turn and walk away after throwing the nuke that interests me.

I mean, from the 30 seconds we saw of him, we learned three things:

A) he was the reliable one of the team.
B) he isn't afraid to get his hands dirty if it means winning.
C) he isn't afraid to kill himself, either, if need be.

My first thought was 'who is this mysterious soldier, who has absolutely no shits to give about his impending demise?' The fact that he's never given any real personality beyond that is what piques my interest. And it's not like he needs any other characterization - that would just ruin the moment.

So, yes, he isn't a complex character like Cortana, but then, he doesn't have to be a complex character to be interesting. They could have a set of prequel novels filled with nothing but Thom being Halo's Commissar Yarrick and I'd buy the hell out of them.

No shit a commercial is going to be entertaining. But it's a shallow piece of crap in comparison to Cortana's plot in Halo 4.

And yet the former was more interesting to me. The latter had the potential to be interesting, but, well, all it had was the potential.

In fact, I wouldn't even describe it as a sub-plot. I see it as THE plot of Halo 4. To me, Halo 4's story is about Cortana's descent into madness, and the wrapper of the Didact and Infinity are what pokes and prods the plot into its eventual endpoint.

Mm. The Didact is the main threat, and most of the conflict revolves around him and the Prometheans, so I'd call that the main conflict. That said, the twin plots merge toward the end of the game.

Chief and Cortana could have hitched a ride on Infinity to make it to Earth and try whatever they think could save her. But, Cortana and Chief know they can't do that. Their relationship must suffer as Cortana ever so slowly begins to crumble apart because they know they need to defend Earth when no one else can or will.

But in practice this amounts to her glitching occasionally but still functioning as the game's exposition fairy. It sounds good on paper, but it wasn't so interesting when I got to the game itself.

Me, I find that satisfactory on a much deeper level than, Thom throwing a bomb at a ship.

Again, good on paper, not so good in practice. Deep, emotional plots only work well when they audience reacts in the way the storyteller wants them to react.

Thom's commercial was made so the audience would feel a sense of awe and wonder at what he did. And it accomplished that. I reacted in the way they intended for me to react.

Cortana's plot was made so the audience would feel a sense of sadness and loss. And I didn't feel a thing. I did not react in the way they intended for me to react.

The thing you don't seem to get is the scale of the story being told has no bearing on how interesting it is. Even a little half-minute clip can be more impactful (to the viewer) than a multi-hour plot.

Not really. We already know from the beginning of Midnight that what the Librarian did to Cortana has had profound effects on her ability to navigate and understand Forerunner networks. Enough to evade the Didact and even lock him out of his own ship's computer. Then you've got her ordering Chief to merge her into the vessel and her updating your HUD and whispering to you signifying she's still alive.

Yeah, but in practice she still just pulled some shit at the last second and yadda yadda yadda.

I know what she did in the last level, but it still just amounted to her disappearing for a while and spouting some technobabble before John put a grenade on the Didact and ended the game. The premise was more interesting than Thom's trailer, certainly, but the portrayal was not. At least to me.

A deus ex machina if you will.

Not really. Kat was already surrounded by other soldiers - it's not too farfetched for Thom to run up and take the bomb from her.

Cortana replicating and using her computer PMS to stall the Didact, on the other hand, is a deus ex machina. A last minute bit used to write the protagonists out of the mess they're in.

All he did was attempt to move an immovable object, and in the process, inflicted friendly casualties.

So did John at the end of Halo 1, but nobody ever talks about that.

Seriously, he could have accomplished the exact same thing by flying up to the lift, chucking it into the grav lift, and then ordering everyone to retreat so no one was killed or injured in the ensuing explosion.

There was a song playing over the whole thing and nobody said anything at all. Maybe he did and we just didn't hear it.

So basically have another contest of who can have the coolest death?

No, a story where plot armor is nonexistent. It'd have to have much more character-building than Reach did, certainly, but I think it could be done well.

343i has already been very liberal at killing off or seriously incapacitating the characters in Halo's story. I find that almost anyone is at risk for death.

They killed Cortana, and...who else? Characters that matter? If they killed off the Didact at the end of Halo 4, I'd be impressed. Maybe if they killed Halsey, sure. How about Thel? 'Mdama?

The evident reason is fairly obvious.

"I only held enough back to get you off the ship."

Not to mention, after the sheer amount of Forerunner techno-porn in Halo 4, I think anyone could easily deduce they were in a hard light box.

There were still people inquiring what happened back when the game first came out. If the audience is clueless, the scene was not clear enough.

Quote from: Raptor the Kid (24) on November 28, 2014, 05:32:08 PM

Quote from: Mr. Admirals on November 28, 2014, 01:37:29 AM

Or you know, the Chief saved his life back when he was a kid...

The chief saved everyone lives. You don't see Osman or Arby sucking up like lasky.

Chief didn't save Osman, they were (are) good friends and peers.

Nor did he save the Arbiter. And actually, if you look at the promo trailers for Halo 3, every single person sucks up to the Chief and says they owe their lives to him.

Chief saved Osman, and every sentient being in the galaxy when he blew up the alpha halo and the ark.

Okay, Arby helped him on that one, but in the believe trailers the guys didn't have a bloody toy chief figure.

Quote from: Mr. Admirals on November 28, 2014, 10:53:41 PM

Quote from: Raptor the Kid (24) on November 28, 2014, 05:32:08 PM

Quote from: Mr. Admirals on November 28, 2014, 01:37:29 AM

Or you know, the Chief saved his life back when he was a kid...

The chief saved everyone lives. You don't see Osman or Arby sucking up like lasky.

Chief didn't save Osman, they were (are) good friends and peers.

Nor did he save the Arbiter. And actually, if you look at the promo trailers for Halo 3, every single person sucks up to the Chief and says they owe their lives to him.

Chief saved Osman, and every sentient being in the galaxy when he blew up the alpha halo and the ark.

Okay, Arby helped him on that one, but in the believe trailers the guys didn't have a bloody toy chief figure.

lol
Chief didn't save the Galaxy on his own