Super Smash Brothers

 
Verbatim
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at 3.6 million GSP with puff, i seem to have finally found a good enough elite smash cushion to where i'm not gonna get kicked out after two or three games, so that's pretty cool i guess


 
Jono
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
Hearing Emerald Hill Zone on the Sonic stages just makes me hope we get Chemical Plant Zone and Metropolis Zone added


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>Walkoffs
>Permanant walls
>Stage Hazzards probably

Oh no no no no no


 
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would be watching the top 8 of ultimate's first supermajor right now but it's late as fuck


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would be watching the top 8 of ultimate's first supermajor right now but it's late as fuck

You should. This Void guy has to be the most terrifying looking person I've seen at a smash tournament.


 
TBlocks
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#13
Hell of a Grand Final. Void :(


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Hell of a Grand Final. Void :(

I went to bed before it finnished. What happened?


 
TBlocks
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#13
Hell of a Grand Final. Void :(

I went to bed before it finnished. What happened?
Void had some incredible combos and kills but Leo just played so solid. It came down to it but Leo got the reset and won 3 - 1 in the 2nd set.


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‘The most inoffensive user on this website’ - Verbatim
Sometimes I get tilted just watching Leo play. Dude is too good smh


 
 
Flee
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Three things:

Is there any standard by which you can assess whether or not you're an even remotely decent player offline? I hardly play the game so have no illusions about where I'm at but is there anything that can tell how good you are? I've yet to lose a game against a level 8 CPU, if that says anything. Just a question out of curiosity.

How does attack priority work? Say I strike down above someone who does an up B. Is there any consistency in terms of who gets the hit? I feel like I've seen both outcomes all frequently. Sometimes the attacks cancel each other out but otherwise one just wins and gets priority. Is this whoever does the stronger attack, executes it later...?

What is up with input delay on movement? It's hands down one of the worst parts of this game unless there's something you can do about it in the settings or whatever. I regularly feel like I'm attacking facing left, hit the thumbstick to turn the other way around and then attack, and it'll just come out still going left. Killed myself several times doing up b the wrong direction because the controls feel very floaty in that regard. Am I doing something wrong or is this just something you learn to play around?
Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 05:03:21 PM by Flee


 
Verbatim
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Three things:

Is there any standard by which you can assess whether or not you're an even remotely decent player offline? I hardly play the game so have no illusions about where I'm at but is there anything that can tell how good you are? I've yet to lose a game against a level 8 CPU, if that says anything. Just a question out of curiosity.
eh, CPUs are certainly smarter than they've ever been, but i still wouldn't trust them as a skill gauge at all (though being able to consistently defeat the strongest ones would at least mean you understand the bare basics of how the game works)

being able to do so without items and on non-jank stages (like battlefield or FD) would certainly help a little more as well, if you haven't taken that into account

the best way would be to find someone who will play with you locally and see if you can't beat them consistently as well (ideally they'll understand how the game works, too, of course)
Quote
How does attack priority work? Say I strike down above someone who does an up B. Is there any consistency in terms of who gets the hit? I feel like I've seen both outcomes all frequently. Sometimes the attacks cancel each other out but otherwise one just wins and gets priority. Is this whoever does the stronger attack, executes it later...?
if you both get hit, then the hitboxes of the two moves overlapped, causing a "trade"

if you get hit first, then either the hitbox of your opponent's up+b was able to make contact with you faster than your attack could cycle through its startup frames, or your attack whiffed due to poor spacing (either you missed or they evaded), making you vulnerable

if you hit them first, same thing, only it was in your favor instead

contrariwise, grounded moves do have a priority system roughly based on attack strength, but i think it only applies to moves in excess of an 8% differential, meaning you're not gonna trade pichu's jab with k. rool's forward smash; the latter is always gonna win

so in general, don't challenge powerful grounded moves with weak grounded moves
Quote
What is up with input delay on movement? It's hands down one of the worst parts of this game unless there's something you can do about it in the settings or whatever. I regularly feel like I'm attacking facing left, hit the thumbstick to turn the other way around and then attack, and it'll just come out still going left. Killed myself several times doing up b the wrong direction because the controls feel very floaty in that regard. Am I doing something wrong or is this just something you learn to play around?
it's quite unfortunate, but the game does have 6 frames of input lag, which is indeed the highest of any smash game

you'd hate online, as the input lag seems to be closer to 7 or 8 frames

i don't personally find it all that cumbersome, but i play characters that don't mind it that much—what character have you settled on where this has become an issue? in any case, you'll pretty much just have to hope that it gets improved in a patch later down the line, as there's not a whole lot you can do except maybe use the most optimal controller (which i don't happen to know)
Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 05:35:35 PM by Verbatim


 
 
Flee
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Yeah, matches against the CPU are without items on the neutral battlefield stages. The highest level ones are pretty damn fast and accurate with blocks, grabs and pretty much everything else too, so I like to think I can't be that bad if I can consistently beat them. I played only one other person for a single match and that was with each of using one part of the controller without the black bands on top of them, so I'm not even going to count that one since neither of us could really pull of anything.

The priority thing mainly relates to Link's down sword bounce thing. If you're in the air and use it, you basically just hold out your sword beneath you until you land and I believe it'll just hit anything that touches it. If you're doing that above someone else, I feel it's very inconsistent if they respond by attacking upwards with any move of their own. Sometimes I just win, sometimes we both take damage and otherwise they just knock me away as if I wasn't doing anything. I'm sure there's some sort of a mechanic at play here but it's felt pretty random to me so far.

Damn, 6 frames of input lag really is quite a lot although I suppose fighting games can get away with some of it more easily than other genres. There's no completely continuous and precise tracking as is the case with your mouse in some FPS games, so having a minor delay isn't that bad when it's the same for everyone since there's some time between tapping buttons anyways. Definitely still noticeable though, unfortunately. My issue is not with a specific character, it's just some with some general aspects of movement. Like, say you're knocked off the right side of the stage and are facing away from it. You float closer to the stage by holding left and at the right time flick left again to turn your character around just before using your up B (with like Marth or Lucina, for example). I've had it happen numerous times where the flick to change my direction just doesn't get picked up before the up B already initiates - causing me to execute the attack still facing in the wrong direction away from the stage. This is a very noticeable example but I feel it can happen otherwise too with just normal attacks and moves. It just sometimes seems like the game drops inputs in quick successive sequences. This might have to do with the input delay or how the game deals with buffering inputs, but it's still a minor issue. I suppose you can just learn to play around it and get the timings for everything just right so that doesn't happen with enough experience.


 
 
Flee
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The one thing I know I'm still bad at is fighting off stage. I only recently started trying it and it more often than not just ends in me killing myself. I hop off, go in for a swing and by the time I can recover with up B I'm already so far below the stage I can't back. I suppose it's probably because I should try to walk off rather than jump so I keep that extra jump after the attack, and that I should be careful with holding down to drop faster as it'll put me very low before I can start recovering.


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The main strength of the CPUs is the fact that all their actions are frame perfect and they input read you to hell. But they are still at the end of the day handeld game software and not some Google Deepmind Forerunner AI. They're prone to predictably and other typical video game AI jank that makes them exploitable.
You've certainly heard this before from Verb, but don't lean too heavily on the AI for practice, otherwise you could develop some bad habbits. Even comparing yourself to the AI isn't really a good metric I feel just due to how janky and inconsistent they can just be sometimes. One moment it's like you're up against Thanos at EVO and the next it will just An Hero itself into any random attack you throw out. Butating them rather consistent Is not a bad goal at all.

As for the turning problem, I suffer from that too. Since I main Samus I can kinda use my b attacks as a crutch to turn but it's rare I manage to pull that off anyway. I'd also like advise about that if you've got it, Verb.


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I suppose it's probably because I should try to walk off rather than jump so I keep that extra jump after the attack, and that I should be careful with holding down to drop faster as it'll put me very low before I can start recovering.

Yeah the solution is literally just this and knowing how your character moves in general. You'll be fine.


 
Verbatim
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The priority thing mainly relates to Link's down sword bounce thing. If you're in the air and use it, you basically just hold out your sword beneath you until you land and I believe it'll just hit anything that touches it. If you're doing that above someone else, I feel it's very inconsistent if they respond by attacking upwards with any move of their own. Sometimes I just win, sometimes we both take damage and otherwise they just knock me away as if I wasn't doing anything. I'm sure there's some sort of a mechanic at play here but it's felt pretty random to me so far.
it's hard to know precisely what's going on without seeing the interaction itself, but in GENERAL, it's not actually a bad thing to go for what you're trying to go for here

sword moves have what are called "disjointed" hitboxes

usually, when a character uses a move, like mario's forward tilt, not only does this produce a hitbox in front of him (during the move's active frames), it also extends mario's hurtbox as far as his leg gets kicked outward, which allows his opponents to smack him from a further distance than normal for the duration of the move if mario's spacing is poor

disjointed hitboxes, or simply disjoints, are completely detached from the character's hurtbox, because the move involves a weapon that is not part of the user's body, like a sword or whip or some such, meaning the move should always beat out any non-disjoint that comes in contact with it

it's actually kinda difficult to contrive a scenario where link's down air loses to anything, tbh, especially in midair, but if it's happening at all, it's either because of mistiming (overestimating how long the move is active, perhaps, or underestimating how many startup frames it has), or your opponent's attack was able to hit link without touching the sword during the move

or maybe the move you're trying to hit has super armor or something, i don't know, there's many variables

whatever the case, the rules aren't inconsistent, though something weird definitely is going on if link's dair is losing
Quote
Like, say you're knocked off the right side of the stage and are facing away from it. You float closer to the stage by holding left and at the right time flick left again to turn your character around just before using your up B (with like Marth or Lucina, for example). I've had it happen numerous times where the flick to change my direction just doesn't get picked up before the up B already initiates - causing me to execute the attack still facing in the wrong direction away from the stage.
i think this has less to do with input lag, and more to do with a misunderstanding of how doing a reverse up+b works

to do a reverse up+b does not involve any extraneous flicking; you simply tilt the stick diagonally upward to the left or right, and then press b, and even if you were facing the wrong way, your character should turn around in midair and perform the move in whatever direction you were tilting

merely flicking the stick to the left once before the up+b would almost certainly lead to mishaps, and there's generally no flicking involved in the process—if you're recovering to the stage from the right, facing backwards, you should be drifting to the left, and then holding diagonally up and to the left as you're recovering

it might seem strange to be performing an up+b with a diagonal input, but the game allows for it

if you're using a controller without a gated stick, it can be difficult (especially in the heat of the moment) to know exactly where an up+b input becomes a side+b input, so that will take some practice

if your controller does have a gated stick, however, you're in luck, as nesting the stick in the upper vertices should guarantee that an angled up+b is performed every single time (unless it's broken)

Quote
The one thing I know I'm still bad at is fighting off stage. I only recently started trying it and it more often than not just ends in me killing myself. I hop off, go in for a swing and by the time I can recover with up B I'm already so far below the stage I can't back. I suppose it's probably because I should try to walk off rather than jump so I keep that extra jump after the attack, and that I should be careful with holding down to drop faster as it'll put me very low before I can start recovering.
edgeguarding is definitely a great habit to start getting into, but characters like Link are unfortunately not well-suited for it, as far as jumping off the stage goes, because he has trouble making it back safely

it's not that he can't do it; you just have to KNOW that you'll be able to make it back if you're gonna commit at all, so maybe spend some time in training mode practicing jumping off the stage and seeing how low you can go before you can actually recover—both when your midair jump is used up, and when it isn't

and yes, sometimes running off rather than jumping is better (with link, runoff nair is probably his go-to edgeguard if you must get off the stage), and yeah, not fast-falling into a pit sounds like a bright idea to me

personally, if i'm link, i would probably try edgeguarding with his tools rather than his aerials, because i'm a coward like that

i've found that setting a bomb at the ledge is a pretty decent trap—even if they avoid it, you can generally predict how they'll do it, and punish them accordingly
Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:38:16 PM by Verbatim


 
Verbatim
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As for the turning problem, I suffer from that too. Since I main Samus I can kinda use my b attacks as a crutch to turn but it's rare I manage to pull that off anyway. I'd also like advise about that if you've got it, Verb.
i dunno, for me it's a simple matter of tilting the stick in the right direction

if you're unable to turn around while recovering, you just have to be conscience of what direction you're tilting as you do the up+b

if you're too far in the neutral upward position, you're gonna do it in the wrong direction—you have to make sure that the stick is being tilted a considerable amount in the direction you want, but not so much that you'll be performing a side+b by mistake

if you use a gamecube controller or something with a gated stick, use it to your advantage, i've never tilted a stick upward in any direction diagonally without getting the exact up+b that i want
Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:46:44 PM by Verbatim


 
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or you could both just play puff and never have to worry about doing recovery up+Bs at all



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or you could both just play puff and never have to worry about doing recovery up+Bs at all



I've been considering it.  I've been trying to find a second character to deal with rushdowns because they fuck my Samus sideways. How's puff against rushers?


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For example I had a super embarrassing match at school the other day where little Mac 2 stocked me.


 
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Goodness gracious, great balls of lightning!
Or you can play Dedede and up-B your opponent into the abyss or give them the ol’ suck and cuck


 
Verbatim
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I've been considering it.  I've been trying to find a second character to deal with rushdowns because they fuck my Samus sideways. How's puff against rushers?
i struggle fighting spacies honestly, but little mac is puff food considering they're polar opposite characters, and puff can gimp anyone with a bad recovery rather effortlessly

just don't fight him straight up, get comfortable with the idea of camping and ban FD
Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 01:55:44 AM by Verbatim


 
 
Flee
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You've certainly heard this before from Verb, but don't lean too heavily on the AI for practice, otherwise you could develop some bad habbits. Even comparing yourself to the AI isn't really a good metric I feel just due to how janky and inconsistent they can just be sometimes.
Yeah, I know. Thing is just that I'm not really practicing for anything or trying to improve in a meaningful way. The game's fun but it's just something I play irregularly to kill time or late at night when I can't get to sleep. It's far from a main game for me and since you have to pay for the online multiplayer, I don't really see myself playing against other people any time soon. I was just wondering out of curiosity if there's anything you can do to get a general idea of your skill level by playing offline. Like in Dark Souls, I'd say that if you can pull off a level 1 run of all bosses, you're definitely a good player with a solid understanding of the game and its mechanics.  Or in Quake, where you're at the very least decent if you can beat the highest level bots in a 1v1 custom game.


 
 
Flee
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As for the turning problem, I suffer from that too. Since I main Samus I can kinda use my b attacks as a crutch to turn but it's rare I manage to pull that off anyway. I'd also like advise about that if you've got it, Verb.
i dunno, for me it's a simple matter of tilting the stick in the right direction

if you're unable to turn around while recovering, you just have to be conscience of what direction you're tilting as you do the up+b

if you're too far in the neutral upward position, you're gonna do it in the wrong direction—you have to make sure that the stick is being tilted a considerable amount in the direction you want, but not so much that you'll be performing a side+b by mistake

if you use a gamecube controller or something with a gated stick, use it to your advantage, i've never tilted a stick upward in any direction diagonally without getting the exact up+b that i want
It's not just the recovery though, it happens in other situations as well. Say you block facing left while your opponent is to your right. You drop the block, move the directional stick to face towards the right, and hit the grab button or attack right after. It happens quite often that the turnaround input just doesn't get picked up and that I end up doing the attack or grab while still facing the wrong way even though I already moved the direction stick. I don't know if it's because of the input delay, the way the game (doesn't) buffer certain inputs or prioritizes some over others, or if I'm just not getting something, but it's something strange nevertheless. The movement just doesn't feel as tight as it could be, imo. You also sometimes see it if you want to quickly turn around in midair, let go off the stick again and then do a neutral air attack, but the input seems to linger long enough so that it still registers as a back air. I'm definitely willing to admit to some user error here but I've seen a bunch of people talk about the same problem. I guess it's just something that you learn to play around by getting used to the timings and how the inputs string together (seeing how pros and good players manage just fine), but it is something I think could still be better.

I'll give the diagonal up Bs a try though, thanks.


 
Verbatim
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It's not just the recovery though, it happens in other situations as well. Say you block facing left while your opponent is to your right. You drop the block, move the directional stick to face towards the right, and hit the grab button or attack right after. It happens quite often that the turnaround input just doesn't get picked up and that I end up doing the attack or grab while still facing the wrong way even though I already moved the direction stick.
yeah, imo you should just condition yourself to perform the grab later than you think you need to; after testing, i was able to successfully do what you're trying to do 44 times out of 50 clean (uninterrupted) attempts, during online matches, with the 6 failures boiling down to me being sloppy

in this game, you must wait 11 frames before you can act out of dropping your shield (which obviously increases if your shield was hit at any point, which is called shieldstun), and you only have a handful of options if you want to act out of shield instantly

rolling and sidestepping (or spot-dodging) are your two regular out-of-shield (OoS) options, and you've no doubt familiarized yourself with these tools

you can also grab oos, but this option was nerfed to the point of being rather shitty in this game, and doing so too often, or in less than opportune scenarios, will often produce undesirable results—pretty much only use this if you blocked an attack with a lot of endlag, and they happen to be in point-blank range

jumps and short hops can be performed OoS, as well, which is my favorite option, because it gives almost every character a universal "get off me" move—after blocking an aerial, for example, you can perform a SHFF nair OoS (short hop fast-fall neutral air out of shield) with characters such as link and jigglypuff, since these two characters have nairs with long-lasting hitboxes, and tend to be one of your faster offensive oos options as well

lastly, up smashes can be done oos (they previously had to be jump-cancelled, but it's no longer necessary), as well as your up+b—which is particularly useful for you as Link, because the spin attack has a lot of knockback and comes out rather quickly, making it a powerful "get off me" tool

the up+b oos input must be tapped, though—to perform one successfully, the stick must be flicked with the B-press simultaneously; keeping it tilted as you would normally will yield nothing

Quote
You also sometimes see it if you want to quickly turn around in midair, let go off the stick again and then do a neutral air attack, but the input seems to linger long enough so that it still registers as a back air.
i do get this sometimes, but i tend to chalk it up more to personal error than anything else

fortunately, my character's nair, fair, and even bair to a certain extent are kinda interchangeable in the sense that she doesn't really mind which one she's hitting you with, as they all lead to advantageous states and have similar purposes

link's aerials are all highly specialized though so i can see that being a pain in the ass
Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 10:11:07 AM by Verbatim


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Here's the ruleset we use at my school. What do ya think?

Edit: No idea why it's sideways here
Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 11:35:03 AM by Chaos Metal Dragon


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How the fuck do you get out of Donkey Kong's Stage spike. I just lost to the most garbage player ive ever seen due to that shit and  I feel like stabbing a child in the face because of it.
Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 01:30:16 PM by Chaos Metal Dragon


 
Verbatim
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How the fuck do you get out of Donkey Kong's Stage spike. I just lost to the most garbage player ive ever seen due to that shit and I feel like stabbing a child in the face because of it.
learn to tech

on top of that, i think the most optimal way to mash out of grabs is to spin the stick in circles as opposed to mashing buttons, works for me at least

but if you're at too high % to either tech or mash out, then just Don't Get Hit™
Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 04:35:51 PM by Verbatim


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I neither fear, nor despise.
Going to a tournament tomorrow. Been losing to 2 people in particular at locals that never held a candle to me in smash 4. But I beat one of them for the first time this weekly. So I think I'm understanding the game a bit better, and more confident in Fox in general. Still playing braindead belmonts if I run into a matchup thats annoying as fuck.

Will try to jablock fools for the stream : D


R o c k e t | Mythic Smash Master
 
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I neither fear, nor despise.
Tournament is out of town btw, so I'm the only rep from my city going. Time to carry  >:(