"In Defense of MGS4."

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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

i'll change my opinion when you present reasonable and overwhelming evidence

Suuuuuure

it's happened plenty of times

i can provide eye witness accounts


 
Twisted Innards
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Excuse me, I'm full of dog poison
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

i'll change my opinion when you present reasonable and overwhelming evidence

Suuuuuure

it's happened plenty of times

i can provide eye witness accounts

Will you?


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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

i'll change my opinion when you present reasonable and overwhelming evidence

Suuuuuure

it's happened plenty of times

i can provide eye witness accounts

Will you?

my stance in this thread

http://sep7agon.net/the-flood/should-trump-be-allowed-to-resign


confirm?


 
TBlocks
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#13
good job refuting me

Can't refute people who refuse to change their opinions. You're becoming a fine clone of verbatim.

i'll change my opinion when you present reasonable and overwhelming evidence

Suuuuuure

it's happened plenty of times

i can provide eye witness accounts

Will you?

my stance in this thread

http://sep7agon.net/the-flood/should-trump-be-allowed-to-resign


confirm?
What that you actually get your mind changed on stuff? Yeah I've seen it before. lol


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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
I'm not seeing the contradiction, he's a joke character that fans of the series enjoyed seeing, fleshing him out in the final chapter isn't insulting in the slightest.

No. Fleshing out a gag character is insulting because he's not meant to be taken seriously. And then it's insulting to expect someone in-universe to be just okay with that, and marry them.

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To be fair it is a bit of a misstep but it adds a lot to his involvement in the original games.

how

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I was also under the assumption that Maryl was attracted to that bumbling side of him.

i don't know what lead you to that conclusion, because she doesn't nothing to point to that in any scene prior to the shoot out.

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You don't marry someone who saves your life once.

hence the insult

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They were on a team for a long time previous, I'm sure one instance wasn't enough to change her perception of him.

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hence the insult

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Bad dialogue is bad dialogue, translation problems included. Doesn't take away from the games imo, but that's what mgs has always been about for me. It's basically an over the top anime that you play.

i'm saying if that's your justification for bad dialogue, i think it's fair to be a little less crticial of it. aside from a few other instance of genuinely bad dialogue, the games are just fine.

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Raiden having a kid is the one thing that should be confusing about this whole scenario. He was raised as a child to be an unthinking, unfeeling soldier. When he said he wanted to pursue his own path I took it more as he was done fighting for others and wanted to fight for his own cause, like his idols. He's no longer a soldier following orders he doesn't believe in, he found something he wanted to fight for.

i don't think you're supposed to take it that way

i think you're expected to think he went off with the real rose to start a family


 
Twisted Innards
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Excuse me, I'm full of dog poison
I'm not seeing the contradiction, he's a joke character that fans of the series enjoyed seeing, fleshing him out in the final chapter isn't insulting in the slightest.

No. Fleshing out a gag character is insulting because he's not meant to be taken seriously. And then it's insulting to expect someone in-universe to be just okay with that, and marry them.

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To be fair it is a bit of a misstep but it adds a lot to his involvement in the original games.

how

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I was also under the assumption that Maryl was attracted to that bumbling side of him.

i don't know what lead you to that conclusion, because she doesn't nothing to point to that in any scene prior to the shoot out.

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You don't marry someone who saves your life once.

hence the insult

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They were on a team for a long time previous, I'm sure one instance wasn't enough to change her perception of him.

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hence the insult

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Bad dialogue is bad dialogue, translation problems included. Doesn't take away from the games imo, but that's what mgs has always been about for me. It's basically an over the top anime that you play.

i'm saying if that's your justification for bad dialogue, i think it's fair to be a little less crticial of it. aside from a few other instance of genuinely bad dialogue, the games are just fine.

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Raiden having a kid is the one thing that should be confusing about this whole scenario. He was raised as a child to be an unthinking, unfeeling soldier. When he said he wanted to pursue his own path I took it more as he was done fighting for others and wanted to fight for his own cause, like his idols. He's no longer a soldier following orders he doesn't believe in, he found something he wanted to fight for.

i don't think you're supposed to take it that way

i think you're expected to think he went off with the real rose to start a family

Involvement may have been the wrong word, it explains a lot more about his character and why he behaved the way he did. Knowing Hideo this was his plan from the start. It's more of an "aha" moment than anything else, which again doesn't break his character from being the bumbling idiot.

I'm thinking you might want to replay 4 and watch his interactions with Maryl. She's the epitome of tsundere the entire time. She obviously cares for him and it's not the one instance he saves her that changes all that.



The story for mgs has always been outrageous and at times poorly written. Be it translation issues or Hideo's ridiculous concepts. To say otherwise is just dishonest.  Serviceable doesn't equal good, but again it doesn't negatively impact the games in my opinion. If anything it's part of the charm.



Therein lies the ambiguity. He does both apparently, but it was always harder for me to accept him becoming a family man as opposed to fighting for his own cause.
Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 12:47:37 AM by Twisted Innards


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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
Involvement may have been the wrong word, it explains a lot more about his character and why he behaved the way he did. Knowing Hideo this was his plan from the start. It's more of an "aha" moment than anything else, which again doesn't break his character from being the bumbling idiot.

what i'm saying is that while yes, he does "explain" it, he didn't need to. johnny was a gag character that didn't need to be taken seriously.

you give kojima WAY too much credit if you think he planned this since 1998

seriously man you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel with these "rebuttals"

i know you're smarter than this

right

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I'm thinking you might want to replay 4 and watch his interactions with Maryl. She's the epitome of tsundere the entire time. She obviously cares for him and it's not the one instance he saves her that changes all that.

sounds more like confirmation bias to me than anything else. there's no such thing as subtelty with metal gear characters.

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The story for mgs has always been outrageous and at times poorly written. Be it translation issues or Hideo's ridiculous concepts. To say otherwise is just dishonest.  Serviceable doesn't equal good, but again it doesn't negatively impact the games in my opinion. If anything it's part of the charm.

writing =/= dialogue

writing encompasses everything -- from dialogue, to plot, to foreshadowing -- everything

we were strictly talking about dialogue

but the writing is solid in 1 2 and 3. the dialogue is serviceable (not great but not bad) in 1 and 2. 3 is much better, to the point of "good". 4 is bad. peace walker is good. mgsv is great.

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Therein lies the ambiguity. He does both apparently, but it was always harder for me to accept him becoming a family man as opposed to fighting for his own cause.

dude you're just pulling shit out of your ass at this point

the ambiguity of mgs2's ending did not stem from whether or not raiden started a family jesus christ

give your head a shake what the hell


 
Twisted Innards
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Excuse me, I'm full of dog poison
Involvement may have been the wrong word, it explains a lot more about his character and why he behaved the way he did. Knowing Hideo this was his plan from the start. It's more of an "aha" moment than anything else, which again doesn't break his character from being the bumbling idiot.

what i'm saying is that while yes, he does "explain" it, he didn't need to. johnny was a gag character that didn't need to be taken seriously.

you give kojima WAY too much credit if you think he planned this since 1998

seriously man you're just scraping the bottom of the barrel with these "rebuttals"

i know you're smarter than this

right

Quote
I'm thinking you might want to replay 4 and watch his interactions with Maryl. She's the epitome of tsundere the entire time. She obviously cares for him and it's not the one instance he saves her that changes all that.

sounds more like confirmation bias to me than anything else. there's no such thing as subtelty with metal gear characters.

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The story for mgs has always been outrageous and at times poorly written. Be it translation issues or Hideo's ridiculous concepts. To say otherwise is just dishonest.  Serviceable doesn't equal good, but again it doesn't negatively impact the games in my opinion. If anything it's part of the charm.

writing =/= dialogue

writing encompasses everything -- from dialogue, to plot, to foreshadowing -- everything

we were strictly talking about dialogue

but the writing is solid in 1 2 and 3. the dialogue is serviceable (not great but not bad) in 1 and 2. 3 is much better, to the point of "good". 4 is bad. peace walker is good. mgsv is great.

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Therein lies the ambiguity. He does both apparently, but it was always harder for me to accept him becoming a family man as opposed to fighting for his own cause.

dude you're just pulling shit out of your ass at this point

the ambiguity of mgs2's ending did not stem from whether or not raiden started a family jesus christ

give your head a shake what the hell

The fact that you think expanding upon a "gag" character is an insult is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Plenty of joke characters get their moment to shine in other media, not sure why this is such a big issue tbh.


I apologize, the dialogue has been poorly written and over the top in all the metal gear solid games. From the deadpan delivery of snake's lines to the ridiculous over acted lines of the enemies and even raiden's bitchy whiny delivery. I'm not sure you can call any of them good. Serviceable at best, campy and hilarious for the most part. Mgs4 is no different, I don't understand your issue with it if the others are fine. And I'll be fucked if you actually think it was good in five. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the fiddles and whooooooo plays them.



The entire story of mgs2 is ambiguous, you literally know nothing at the end of it and it's been thoroughly discussed and theorized about what actually happens. The ambiguity I was referring to is what exactly Raiden intends on doing. You thought he would give up war, I thought he was done following orders.

Also you should probably calm down with the intelligence remarks, it reeks of insecurity.


 
Luciana
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I have to go to bed and i'll reply tomorrow, but Snake seriously take a chill pill on your arguing. Telling me to kill myself over something you disagree with me on is way too childish.

it's more fun this way
makes you come off a bit autistic that you can't freak out over disagreements for a franchise you enjoy


 
Luciana
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that still doesn't make the story bad, it makes its execution bad
Eh, idk dude. The entire thing from the main baddie, to Metal Gear for whatever reason, to Big Boss not really being Big Boss and he's actually a better person and it's some retarded metaphor or whatever, is all just terrible. The characters are also just boooooring as hell minus like two people. Troy Baker managed to get the most boring Ocelot ever.

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as for boss fights, they aren't really here, and that's fine. if you think a lack of boss fights somehow makes a game bad, you need to kill yourself.
Not a game bad, just takes away from what Metal Gear is given how the entire series has managed to have some memorable boss fight in one game or another, even if the execution wasn't always there.

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helicopter times are annoying, but they don't somehow detract from the game when you're actually in control
Yeah but they also take away from the overall product because you're wasting so much damn time in the thing. It's atrocious. And the fact the credits roll that spoil whos going to be in that story mission. Maybe it was a mistake saying it was gameplay, but from an overall package, it's just such a terrible decision to do and you waste so much time with it. It's like that same animation in a game that looks cool at first, but the fact you have to do it so frequently, it gets horrible and time consuming.

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you sound like those people that try to argue halo 4's soundtrack is bad because it doesn't fit their subjective definition of halo's """sound"""
I could go on about how Halo 4 failed as a Halo game, from a story standpoint, all the way to 343 fucking up the aesthetic of it.
Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 10:22:59 AM by Luciana


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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
I have to go to bed and i'll reply tomorrow, but Snake seriously take a chill pill on your arguing. Telling me to kill myself over something you disagree with me on is way too childish.

it's more fun this way
makes you come off a bit autistic that you can't freak out over disagreements for a franchise you enjoy

i'm not freaking out, i just enjoy berrating you


Snake | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
The fact that you think expanding upon a "gag" character is an insult is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Plenty of joke characters get their moment to shine in other media, not sure why this is such a big issue tbh.

gag character expansion isn't inherently a bad thing but the fact that we're expected to suddenly take him seriously is what's insulting

please starting comprehending what i'm saying

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I apologize, the dialogue has been poorly written and over the top in all the metal gear solid games. From the deadpan delivery of snake's lines to the ridiculous over acted lines of the enemies and even raiden's bitchy whiny delivery. I'm not sure you can call any of them good. Serviceable at best, campy and hilarious for the most part. Mgs4 is no different, I don't understand your issue with it if the others are fine. And I'll be fucked if you actually think it was good in five. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the fiddles and whooooooo plays them.

i just think you're wrong. it's fine in 1 and 2, good in 3, good in peace walker, and great in five. all of them have a few instances of bad lines but that's it.

delivery =/= bad dialogue

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The entire story of mgs2 is ambiguous, you literally know nothing at the end of it and it's been thoroughly discussed and theorized about what actually happens. The ambiguity I was referring to is what exactly Raiden intends on doing. You thought he would give up war, I thought he was done following orders.

you specifically implied the ambiguity stemmed from raiden's family life after the game

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Also you should probably calm down with the intelligence remarks, it reeks of insecurity.

i've had to reexplain extremely basic shit to you several times over the course of the thread

i don't really care what it "reeks" of, i'm just tired of doing it


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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
Eh, idk dude. The entire thing from the main baddie, to Metal Gear for whatever reason, to Big Boss not really being Big Boss and he's actually a better person and it's some retarded metaphor or whatever, is all just terrible. The characters are also just boooooring as hell minus like two people. Troy Baker managed to get the most boring Ocelot ever.

you have the most minute complaints about the game

"yeah i didn't like the story ocelot is really boring"

like wtf

the story in concept is perfectly fine, it's meant to explain the whole 2 big boss's thing. on a metaphorical level where you function as a player proxy, it's fine, too. it's not brilliant by any means but it's certainly better than a story that exists only to service fans and answer questions that were meant to be left unanswered.

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Not a game bad, just takes away from what Metal Gear is given how the entire series has managed to have some memorable boss fight in one game or another, even if the execution wasn't always there.

i think that's just a cancerous mindset to have

breath of the wild didn't have great boss fights either. i'm still going to argue it's the best LoZ game, ever.

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Yeah but they also take away from the overall product because you're wasting so much damn time in the thing. It's atrocious. And the fact the credits roll that spoil whos going to be in that story mission.

fair enough, it detracts from the overall game quality but it's dumb to use it as "evidence" against the gameplay.

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Maybe it was a mistake saying it was gameplay, but from an overall package, it's just such a terrible decision to do and you waste so much time with it. It's like that same animation in a game that looks cool at first, but the fact you have to do it so frequently, it gets horrible and time consuming.

yeah for sure.

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I could go on about how Halo 4 failed as a Halo game, from a story standpoint, all the way to 343 fucking up the aesthetic of it.

if that's your takeaway you completely missed the point of what i was getting at

people don't like halo 4's soundtrack (specifically the soundtrack) because it didn't remind them of marty's work, and lacked the arbitrary """halo feel""" they wanted. it's just nonsense.


 
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i'm not freaking out, i just enjoy berrating you


Snake | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.


 
Luciana
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you have the most minute complaints about the game
Talk to Verb

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breath of the wild didn't have great boss fights either. i'm still going to argue it's the best LoZ game, ever.
wind waker is the best

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if that's your takeaway you completely missed the point of what i was getting at

people don't like halo 4's soundtrack (specifically the soundtrack) because it didn't remind them of marty's work, and lacked the arbitrary """halo feel""" they wanted. it's just nonsense.
I know, I just wanted to add in why I think Halo is shit. The soundtrack never really bothered me. I felt a lot of it was uninspired, with only a few standout songs, but yeah I know what you meant.


Snake | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
Talk to Verb

about what

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wind waker is the best

maybe in terms of overall artistic merit but breath of the wild in the best from a purely gameplay perspective


 
Paul Andersen
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this is why i ship lucistoric


 
TBlocks
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#13
breath of the wild didn't have great boss fights either. i'm still going to argue it's the best LoZ game, ever.
wind waker is the best
I love Wind Waker but no.


 
Paul Andersen
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botw is amazing, but there are too many aspects that could be improved for it to be the best imo

WW is as close to perfection zelda has ever gotten

not to steer this thread in that wind direction
Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:59:10 PM by Verbatim


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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
i just think botw functions as a better game. ww is better as a piece of art.


Snake | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
also, that pun


 
Luciana
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Luciana
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botw is amazing, but there are too many aspects that could be improved for it to be the best imo

WW is as close to perfection zelda has ever gotten

not to steer this thread in that wind direction
Tfw Verb agrees with you



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I lied, I'm not impressed. But then again, I'm a tough audience.
i'm not freaking out, i just enjoy berrating you


heh
berate me more, daddy

jeez man, spud's into it
slice and dice
can't do it when they into it


 
Twisted Innards
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Excuse me, I'm full of dog poison
The fact that you think expanding upon a "gag" character is an insult is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Plenty of joke characters get their moment to shine in other media, not sure why this is such a big issue tbh.

gag character expansion isn't inherently a bad thing but the fact that we're expected to suddenly take him seriously is what's insulting

please starting comprehending what i'm saying

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I apologize, the dialogue has been poorly written and over the top in all the metal gear solid games. From the deadpan delivery of snake's lines to the ridiculous over acted lines of the enemies and even raiden's bitchy whiny delivery. I'm not sure you can call any of them good. Serviceable at best, campy and hilarious for the most part. Mgs4 is no different, I don't understand your issue with it if the others are fine. And I'll be fucked if you actually think it was good in five. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the fiddles and whooooooo plays them.

i just think you're wrong. it's fine in 1 and 2, good in 3, good in peace walker, and great in five. all of them have a few instances of bad lines but that's it.

delivery =/= bad dialogue

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The entire story of mgs2 is ambiguous, you literally know nothing at the end of it and it's been thoroughly discussed and theorized about what actually happens. The ambiguity I was referring to is what exactly Raiden intends on doing. You thought he would give up war, I thought he was done following orders.

you specifically implied the ambiguity stemmed from raiden's family life after the game

Quote
Also you should probably calm down with the intelligence remarks, it reeks of insecurity.

i've had to reexplain extremely basic shit to you several times over the course of the thread

i don't really care what it "reeks" of, i'm just tired of doing it


If anything the marriage shits on Maryl's character, but doesn't really bring legitimacy to Johnny. Maryl looked like a straight up man in that wedding dress.



I was under the impression that dialogue included delivery, so that's an issue on my part. You can think I'm wrong all you want but I feel the writing has always been sort of janky and it's only gotten marginally better as the series continued.



I implied nothing of the sort, only that the ending is ambiguous.
Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 10:34:35 PM by Twisted Innards


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Jacob Potila was actually a Jacob Flotilla of lies.- WarTurkey
I love how passionate this series makes us. We care that much about it to go into such depths.


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And I mean, hell, if you have to live the rest of your life in a memory...you might as well make it a good one.
What is this thread? MGS was never good anyway.


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Jacob Potila was actually a Jacob Flotilla of lies.- WarTurkey
What is this thread? MGS was never good anyway.

What's that?




Oh it's the sound of WRONG


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And I mean, hell, if you have to live the rest of your life in a memory...you might as well make it a good one.
What is this thread? MGS was never good anyway.

What's that?




Oh it's the sound of WRONG